Posted on 08/27/2009 7:31:14 AM PDT by Walter Scott Hudson
Let us detour for a moment from the recent death of Senator Ted Kennedy and the continuing debate over health care reform to consider a bizarre little happening in the Twin Cities that occurred last week. The Evangelical Lutheran Church of America convened for an annual meeting at the Minneapolis Convention Center. Among the items on its agenda was a vote to decide whether to allow non-celibate homosexuals to be ordained as pastors. On Wednesday, the day of the vote, a freak storm unexpectedly swept through town without warning, bringing a tornado that damaged both the convention center and the neighboring Central Lutheran Church. The cross atop the church was ripped off. Some half-joked that Jesus did it. Later in the week, at least one Minnesota pastor openly declared the storm had been a divine warning. That sentiment was ridiculed by liberals as ludicrous. Strangely, there was no similar criticism of lesbian minister Lauren Wendt's assertion that the two-thirds supermajority, which passed the resolution allowing actively gay pastors by a single vote, was "divine intervention" and "the Holy Spirit at work."
Regardless of whether the storm or the supermajority-by-one had divine origins, the question I have for affected Lutherans is... really? I mean, really? I am not a Lutheran. This is not my church. I have no stake in the issue aside from morbid curiosity and the potential ripple effect through the larger Christian community. But... really?
Here's the question I have, if you are one of these Lutherans who voted to allow actively homosexual pastors, or if you agree with the vote; would you have passed a similar resolution to allow raging alcoholics to pastor your congregations? How about avowed unrepentant kleptomaniacs? Blatant womanizing adulterers? Active serial killers?
(Excerpt) Read more at rightnation.us ...
I left the ELCA in 2008, and was received into the Orthodox Church. This was after NINE FULL YEARS of being part of a Serbian Orthodox community, and becoming essentially Orthodox already. My bad!
But I felt that I needed to stay in the ELCA to help fight its apostasy (not only the gaysbian stuff, but also feminist language in the liturgy, “many paths to God”, denying the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, etc. etc.), in company with my fellow conservative Lutherans.
But in the fall of 2007, God gave me a big wake-up call, through my Serbian brothers and sisters. So I started seriously seeking to join the Orthodox Church, culminating in my Lazarus Saturday 2008 Chrismation.
I’m very happy as an Orthodox Christian. And I’m very glad I left before the big “gay” storm broke (both locally and nationally), and that I did not leave over the “gay” issue, but mainly over the feminazi “liturgy” and because I was essentially Orthodox already. So I look like a “good guy” even to liberals in my former congregation and synod.
I can fully understand your decision. There was a time that I seriously thought of joining the Antiochian Orthodox Church. Part of the reason was because of my love for the Greek fathers and my love for the historic liturgy. The fact that I was also close friends of an Orthodox priest didn’t hurt. If it weren’t for the doctrine of justification by faith alone, I would most likely be a member of the Orthodox community, but it would be easier for my to cut off my arms and legs than for me to reject the doctrine of justification. I would rather see you a member of the Serbian Orthodox Church than the ELCA.
There are some rather pointed condemnations in the scriptures regarding homosexuality. Sodom and Gomorrah come to mind.
Gosh, I guess I am just one of those bitter conservatives, clinging to my guns and Bible!
Would you like to try that one more time, this time using proper upper case and spelling, please?
That is where you missed it. The ELCA is no longer a Christian Church. It is a liberal debating society.
I can appreciate your desire to support your wife’s career by remaining in the church, and I know it’s often frustrating for women who want to use their theological gifts/training in a theologically conservative environment. However, in my opinion a big part of the ELCA’s problem— and if I recall, one of its early cave-ins to liberal pressure— is the very practice of ordaining female pastors. I see no specific Biblical teaching that would support allowing a married woman to pastor a church, and I doubt the reigning feminists in the denomination would listen to your wife if she doesn’t toe their party line.
Perhaps, but not according to God
It is more difficult to sympathize with a sin you do not understand, and remarkably easy to demonize it.
Sin has no need to be 'demonized' it is what it is, and those that have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them recognize it and try to avoid it. When they can't avoid sinning, which is the natural state of man since the Fall, the same Spirit convicts them and drives them to repent.
You don't see the same demonization of other sins, especially the more common ones.
Sin doesn't need demonization for believers.
Why not ordain unrepentant active drunks? Really, what's the difference?
There is none.
Or is this a refutation or redefinition of the biblical teachings regarding homosexuality?
Yes. The real question should be; "If active homosexuality is not sin, what is?" If unrepentant sin is OK, then the Law is invalid and there is no need for the Gospel and Christ died for nothing. I am not ELCA but I am a Lutheran unlike those wretched who subscribe to this abomination passed by their 'leaders'. This and many other ELCA activities are a result of a lack of spiritual teaching and the desire to treat the Word of God like libs do the Constitution; as a living document to be bent to people's will instead of people acting in accordance with God's will.
Perhaps she can go non-denominational after seminary? What’s all the loyalty about when the ELCA has clearly left the Bible and the people behind?
I hope that doesn’t sound like I’m attacking you, I just really, really want to know... I am a former ELCA member.
Way before the current happenings. In May of 1999 I began doing what I could to convince my congregation (that is the congregation of which I am a member) to leave the elca. Along with others, I spent lots of time and treasure making it happen. We are now part of LCMC.
Take a look at lcmc.net.
My wife, Nicole, agrees with the teachings of Luther, and she’ll only be a pastor, if she’s Lutheran.
I’m not a Lutheran, I’m a Roman Catholic, but I have a special relationship with the church and a particular interest in it.
Keep it simple.
Do you believe in Hell?
Do you believe in Satan?
Do you believe that evil exists?
Do you believe in sin?
Jesus preached and instructed on all of these things. He was very clear about them.
I would bet that if you countered the clergy who have put forth this false teaching in the Lutheran church that they might all hem and haw and pause to justify or clarify their answers on these very simple questions. The same way that they can wangle their way out of ambiguity as it regards homosexuality to having practicing homosexuals on their altars.
If you can “reinterpret” or justify or morally rationalize any one obvious truth, then you can pretty much justify anything.
I feel for my friends in the ELCA. I read that a few are staying to fight. I would leave that church if I were a member.
“You know you’re in trouble when even Gaia says you aren’t Christian anymore.”
Ouch!
“My wife, Nicole, agrees with the teachings of Luther, and she’ll only be a pastor, if she’s Lutheran.”
All the best to your wife, I can appreceate that her efforts may be what she has dreamed of all her life. Regardless, these teachings on homosexuality do not square with Martin Luther’s.
Your wife hasn’t lost her way, but her church has. I think a non-denominational Christian church would be a fine way for her to go.
Best of luck. I have lots of very good friends in the Lutheran church. I wish they would get it straightened out, but the gate has been left open and the horses have left the pasture.
The answer to that question in most cases is why I'm concerned about women pastors.
I agree that Luther didn’t approve of ordaining gays and gay weddings. Nicole agrees with Lutherans more than any other denomination.
Nicole says that she feels called, by God, to be ordained. She hopes to be a chaplain in a nursing home or hospital.
I am ELCA (today) but I don't think I will be clicking through to comment.
I'll assume the comment was meant to provoke, because the fallacy of your proposition is too glaring to overlook, too towering to ignore.
There's no organized presence in the church seeking to argue that Scripture doesn't really condemn the thief, that Scripture has somehow been superceded by a "New Thing."
There's also no organized presence in the church advocating for thieves to be pastors.
To paraphrase Michael Medved, "The 'love that dare not mention it's name' has been repaced by 'the love that refuses to shut up!'"
God bless her ~ I hope that she can straighten them out!
Thanks for your service and best of luck with your political endeavors, as well.
Gotcha, thank you for replying to me. I wish her well, and hope that she will have many opportunities to serve as God (and Luther) would like her to, in spite of the ELCA which is trying to ignore both God’s and Luther’s teachings! God bless you both.
Why is it that the older protestant denominations are becoming liberal? The denomination that has Luther’s name on it? Luther and the rest started a revival that got us to get back to the basics - the Bible. Now we need another reformation - a protestant protestant reformation. Denominations mean power, and power means corruption. I’ll keep my non-denominational Christianity, thank you very much.
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