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What If Calvinists Became the Majority . . . Not Gonna Happen . . . But What If . . .
The Riddleblog ^ | Kim Riddlebarger

Posted on 06/05/2009 9:01:38 PM PDT by ReformationFan

Attendance at Joel Osteen's Lakewood Church in Houston would decline rapidly to the point that the property would be sold back to the city of Houston to pay off ministry debts. It would then be re-converted into a basketball arena.

(Excerpt) Read more at kimriddlebarger.squarespace.com ...


TOPICS: Religion
KEYWORDS: calvin; calvinist; calvinistmajority; calvinists; johncalvin; kimriddlebarger; osteen; reformed; reformedchristian; reformedchristianity; reformedtheology; riddlebarger
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To: ShadowAce

Even Calvin didn’t believe the extreme positions osme of these FR Calvinists take.


81 posted on 06/09/2009 12:24:20 PM PDT by SeaHawkFan
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
"Paul tells us everything he is is by the free, unmerited gift of the Holy Spirit within him. He goes so far as to remind us that even his extra effort of labor is accomplished by "the grace of God which was with me."

So basically what you are saying is that we don't have free will, and even if we did whatever we freely did has no merit before the eyes of God. It is only the Holy Spirit working within us that merits any interest of God.

So basically we are avatars in a virtual reality machine playing a game which is beside the point. As if we are all running around in a Donkey Kong simulation and God is judging us as if we were in a Mario Brothers simulation.

82 posted on 06/10/2009 10:43:25 AM PDT by who_would_fardels_bear (The cosmos is about the smallest hole a man can stick his head in. - Chesterton)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
And having free independent beings in a universe all of a sudden makes it a much more interesting place that is more worthy of an almighty God"

Worthy? You believe fallen man is "worthy" of God??

So I clearly talk about whether or not the universe as envisioned by Calvinists is worthy of an all-knowing, all-powerful God and you somehow read that as meaning that I said something about "fallen man" being worthy of God.

Instead of reading Romans, maybe you need to go back to reading McGuffey's.

In any case free men will make bad choices, but they will make choices. Do I like the fact that free men make bad choices? No. Do I believe that the bad choices that free men make are worthy of God. No. What I do find worthy of God is that he would make us free and allow us to do our thing and somehow still be able to make His will come about.

Do I like the fact that thousands of people are killed in automobile accidents every year? No. Do I like the fact that someone invented the automobile making it easy for people to get around to do their daily business? Yes. Unfortunately we can't seem to have the one without the other, but some day we may get there.

If we were created in God's image, what does that mean? Does that mean that God has two arms and two legs and is relatively free of hair? I hardly think so. Does it mean that God is capable of using tools and is capable of interacting socially with other similar beings? I hardly think that that is what is meant by "image".

After years of intensive studies comparing humans with the rest of creation, pretty much the only thing we seem to have that they don't is free will. Our every definition of God is definitive that He has free will as well. Might this not be the quality that allows us to agree with the Bible and claim that we have some likeness to God, however pale in comparison?

And again it has nothing to do with me trying to pretend that I am hot stuff. If anything I have low self-esteem. God doesn't need me to argue in his favor, but the truth needs to be told. And the truth is that if humanity is allowed to flourish over the next million years or so we may some day be able to create solar systems and even galaxies. Such works of engineering may become child's play at some time. But design and build even one other being from scratch that has free will. Now that's something!

Praise be to God!

83 posted on 06/10/2009 11:00:20 AM PDT by who_would_fardels_bear (The cosmos is about the smallest hole a man can stick his head in. - Chesterton)
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To: who_would_fardels_bear
Man was created in the image of God and then he fell. No man seeks God's face unless and until God first quickens that man's mind by the free gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit. We've already disagreed over the fact you somehow believe all men are given new eyes and new ears in spite of the fact Scripture and the evidence around us say otherwise.

After years of intensive studies comparing humans with the rest of creation, pretty much the only thing we seem to have that they don't is free will.

Wow. That's an amazing statement. Aardvarks possess empathy? Gnats are curious? Viruses feel regret?

There are hundreds of "things" that differentiate human from "the rest of creation." A moral "free will" is not one of them since none possess any awareness of God's goodness unless his spirit has been reborn by God to know the things of God. I've provided the Scripture by Paul regarding the natural man and the spiritual man, and I've provided Christ's words that men do not believe because they are not part of His flock.

You, OTOH, have offered "years of intensive study."

"And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:

But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God." -- Acts 5:38-39


84 posted on 06/10/2009 11:32:14 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Well I guess I have to give you credit for admitting that Calvinists don't believe in free will.

In most of the Free Will / Predestination threads Calvinists claimed that they did in fact believe in Free Will and how dare anyone say otherwise.

Their typical form of argument was to cut-and-paste reams of stuff from Sponge and the like which was totally unconvincing.

To be curious, to feel empathy, or to feel regret you have to have free will. Otherwise you are not truly being curious, empathetic, or regretful. You are just following the pre-programmed instructions on the punch cards.

85 posted on 06/10/2009 12:08:47 PM PDT by who_would_fardels_bear (The cosmos is about the smallest hole a man can stick his head in. - Chesterton)
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To: who_would_fardels_bear
To be curious, to feel empathy, or to feel regret you have to have free will.

Not true at all. To be righteous do we need "free will?"

86 posted on 06/10/2009 2:24:27 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
To be righteous do we need "free will?"

Yes. Is my laptop "righteous"?

How about my left shoe? My car?

None of them have free will--and none of them are righteous.

Without free will we are nothing more than puppets on a string. No more righteous or unrighteous than the puppeteer makes us to be--which make the puppeteer righteous or unrighteous.

87 posted on 06/11/2009 6:45:42 AM PDT by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
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To: lurk

Wow.

I really wish I’d written that.

Perfect.


88 posted on 06/11/2009 6:48:12 AM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: aruanan; MarkBsnr; Campion
Nobody saw it until John Calvin described the "hidden" counsel of God which he said was not explicit in scripture.

Oh good Lord....it's worse than I thought.

89 posted on 06/11/2009 6:51:49 AM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: HarleyD
If people would spend more time trying to understand the scriptures and the nature of God...

They would find Calvinism a shabby and rather creepy con.

On the other hand, if they studied and tried to understand the nature of the little pocket diety created by Jean Cauvin in that French lawyer's own dark image.

90 posted on 06/11/2009 6:53:51 AM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Petronski

Diety, deity. Whoops.

Either way, the god of Calvinism is not the Eternal God of Scripture.


91 posted on 06/11/2009 6:54:53 AM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: PAR35
Since ‘Calvinist’ theology originated with Paul...

Uh, no.

Calvinist theology originated with . . . wait for it . . . Calvin.

92 posted on 06/11/2009 6:55:55 AM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Calvin was, after all, the philosophical founder of our current separation between church and state, as well as our representative form of government and its system of checks and balances.

LOL He also invented the rose, the electric blender, stone masonry and non-fat yogurt.

93 posted on 06/11/2009 6:57:23 AM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Calvin was peripherally involved in one man's death for heresy.

ROFLMTO

94 posted on 06/11/2009 6:59:04 AM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
The Roman Catholic Inquisition lasted for 600 years and murdered hundreds of thousands of men, women and children.

Hundreds of thousands, eh? Riiiiiight.

I thought Foxe said it was hundreds of millions, no, hundreds of billions!

95 posted on 06/11/2009 6:59:58 AM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: ShadowAce; Dr. Eckleburg
And yet Titus proclaims that Grace that brings salvation has appeared to all men. This is not all kinds of men, but all men. Thus, while we ourselves are unable to come to Him, His grace allows us that opportunity, while still providing us our Free Will.

Spurgeon would agree with this comment; at least he did so in a sermon on that passage in Titus.

96 posted on 06/11/2009 7:03:52 AM PDT by SeaHawkFan
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
WHAT IS CALVINISM
This is a sad state of mind that people fall into sometimes, in which they do not know the difference between God and Calvin...

97 posted on 06/11/2009 7:04:46 AM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: ShadowAce
...while still providing us our Free Will.

Oh you did it now!

The two little words that bring Calvinists to a full rolling boil: "Free Will."

98 posted on 06/11/2009 7:07:11 AM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Worthy? You believe fallen man is "worthy" of God?

Uh, he was referring to the Universe:

...place that is more worthy of an almighty God.

99 posted on 06/11/2009 7:09:05 AM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Calvinism simply means that God is in charge of all of it from beginning to end.

This is what has always hung me up about Calvinism. If God preordained some people for eternal damnation, then it was *necessary* for sin to enter the world.

This then raises the question, at least in my mind, of who is responsible for original sin. There are only two options: man or God.

The Calvinist cannot accept that Adam sinned out of his own free will, because that would make man, and not God, "sovereign" over his own eternal destiny.

But neither can the Calvinist accept that it was God's will that Adam sin, because that would go against every single word of scripture.

I was exposed to Calvinism for the first time almost eight years ago. And after all these years of study and meditation, I keep coming back to this dilemma about who was responsible for original sin. To my mind, it is such a fundamental issue; yet nobody ever seems to address it. At least I have never read or heard of anyone address it.

Surely I'm not the first person to notice the dilemma. Does anyone have any (constructive) thoughts on this?

Oh, and please, if anyone is going to cut and paste large swaths of text, could we at least limit them to the Bible, and not thousand-year-old documents written by obscure theologians I've never heard of? Thanks.

100 posted on 06/11/2009 7:28:20 AM PDT by kevao
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