Is College a Scam? Me Not Know...

notoriouslyconservative.com ^ | 02 19 09 | Notoriously Conservative

[Notoriously Conservative]

Is college a scam? When it comes to careers like engineering, law, medicine, etc., of course an education is paramount. But answer me this: would an intense series of exams to test the knowledge of applicants for certification as say, a lawyer, not be just as effective as requiring 6+ years of college credit and passing the bar? They both would effectively measure knowledge of the field, but the aforementioned series of exams would not require the credit hours, and better yet the money to acquire those hours. Why is college credit required? Why can't self study, and proof of the necessary knowledge suffice?

I spent four years attaining my degree in a field that has nothing to do with my current occupation. Was it necessary? Well, yes, in order to get my job. But should it be? Perhaps not, it is not as if I am using any of the skills or knowledge from my degree, in a field that is totally unrelated. I could certainly do without the tens of thousands of dollars in debt my education blessed me with.

I'm not advocating the abolishment of the current higher educational system. I am simply posing the question for further thought; simply as an excersize in questioning the status quo.

So, back to the question, is college a scam? Kathy Kristof of Forbes seems to suggest it is. In this intriguing article, Kristof argues that with student loans with terms worse than what you can get from the mob, and with the overinflated importance of a college degree, higher education can actually mean a financial disaster.

Mindy Babbitt entered Davenport University in her mid-20s to study accounting..

[luckystarmom]

There are plenty of good public universities that are reasonably priced. You don’t have to go to a private university.

[TruthConquers]

Who said anything about private university?

How many people are going to have the money in a deflationary, all assets are destroyed, economy? Specially if we are so unfortunate to get hit with inflation? Not many.

The only people sending young adults to college will be the “selected” minorities and the very rich. The middle class is being “share the wealth around” out of existence. Check out our own state. How much more in taxes is that going to take out of the family budget, and how much more is that going to collapse the revenue stream of government because there will be even less to spend? Dems never learn.

It may not be apparent right now, but by next year it will.

[Professional Engineer]

...designed by PE’s.

Thank you, we appreciate the work. Especially right now.

[Professional Engineer]

Take The IEEE. These guys push to keep people with EET degrees, for example, out of engineering jobs, and keep them exclusively for EEs. It’s pure BS, as in 30 years I’ve seen no indictation that one is better than the other.

In most fields there is no difference. The guys and gals doing the applied engineering to design buildings can definitely be of either flavor. Life safety is the driving factor here, and the need to have a PE license. Many states make the requirements higher for the technology guys. I'll take either degree, as long as they can do the work.

BTW, I have an EET degree, and multiple licenses.

[Professional Engineer]

I spent four years attaining my degree in a field that has nothing to do with my current occupation. Was it necessary?

Not always. One of the very best project managers I have received his education (and 2 tours in Iraq) from the University of Singing, Music and Choir. Very bright and a quick learner.

[RinaseaofDs]

I know. Pay me now or pay me later. I’d rather pay now and know I’m not going to die.

[luckystarmom]

If all assets are destroyed then we have bigger problems.

I know that my hubby and I are still saving to send our kids to a good public university.

If need be, they can live at home and go to a state school in our city.

My husband managed to put himself through college in the horrible economy of the late 70s (Carter era), early 80s. He went to a community college and then transferred to Cal Poly. It took him longer than 4 years go get out of college, but he did it without help from his parents. I know he didn’t have any student loans by the time we were married. He had paid them off.

[TruthConquers]

My mom put my Dad though college that way. Took seven years. I was in eighth grade when he graduated. Dad later divorced mom and thinks another women’s children from a previous marriage are just so much better than his own. I spent my summers babysitting my younger brothers from 12 until I got out of high school. All that work and sacrifice for someone other than my mom and us kids.

As to assets, my understanding is that this credit bursting bubble will takes asset values back at least ten years. Then inflation for necessities will skyrocket. Never mind wiping out pensions, 401k’s and savings because the banks are basically insolvent. We are so screwed. Like my mom.

[luckystarmom]

This financial mess that we are in is interesting. My husband and I have always maxed out our 401K’s. We figured over the long haul it would be smart to do.

However, we’ve sold some stock options several times and we didn’t know what to do with those proceeds. One of them is from probably 10 years ago. However, the biggest amount is from a little over a year ago.

We just put that money from the sell of the stock in money market accounts. Well, guess what. We haven’t lost that money.

My husband says he would be so stressed if it weren’t for those money market accounts. They aren’t making much, but they aren’t losing anything.

I don’t know what happens in a total economic collapse. Our money is in FDIC insured money markets, and I keep on wondering what happens if the FDIC somehow can guarantee money. I wonder if we need to buy gold or do something else to keep our money safe.

[TruthConquers]

I have been reading some financial blogs since BearSterns fell. Sometimes I can’t sleep. It will probably be like the Great Depression, only worse. How worse? That depends on what you think is going to happen. Will the dollar collapse? Will deflation stay and not go away for 10 to 20 years? Will inflation kick in from all the monetizing from the Fed to save the broken banks? So far the FDIC has been forcing bank marriages to keep things going. I am just afraid with a marxist in the White House, this could be a nightmare.

Wish you all the luck. Everyone has different ideas, and even me and my hubby disagree on how to proceed. Very hard, yet, who is to say who is right? My marriage is more important than what to do with what we do have. Some gold would be good, along with some silver. In hyperinflation, silver can go to $50. Today it is $14. Nothing fancy, just what I call, super insurance. In case all hell breaks lose.

[luckystarmom]

My neighborhood is sponsoring an emergency preparedness meeting tonight. Part of the topics covered will be what the government will and won’t provide.

I’m in California, but I live in a neighborhood that will take care of each other. There is only 1 entrance into our neighborhood, so it would be easy to defend (compared to other neighborhoods).

I’m guessing our neighborhood will want to purchase some generators and some other emergency supplies. At least, I hope they will.

I’ll have to report back after the meeting. It should be an interesting one.

[alfa6]

"University of Singing, Music and Choir"

I attended the University of Science, Music and Culture, Quantico campus:-)
but alas it was only for 13 days as I was TNPQd :-(

Bummer

Regards

alfa6 ;>}

[alfa6]

Dang forgot this on the previous reply, darn CRS

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/print/200903/air-force

Good article on PEs Service branch, zoom zoom :-)

Regards

alfa6 ;>}

[1L]

>>I think it would be a grand idea if people could just take the ‘certification tests’ (i.e. the bar) without having to go to college.<<

Nobody would pass the bar without going to law school. The multi-state itself not only requires some substantive knowledge, it also requires a great deal of practice and study for one of the hardest multiple choice tests there is.

[1L]

>>If he wants a liberal arts degree in something like history, then he can pay for it himself.<<

This attitude is a mistake and I’ll tell you why: the current state of education is based upon this fallacy. In other words, you are perpetuating what you are complaining about (as are many on this thread). What amounts to current undergraduate education is watered down trade schooling that has little practical application in general and certainly outside the field of study. Want a BBA degree in management? Fine, but you don’t learn a damn thing. A history or polysci degree would give a student a much better overall education for later, say if they change careers.

Current undergraduate course work used to be reserved for graduate study and for good reason. The only BBA degree field that’s worth anything is accounting. Marketing, management, finance, etc. classes on the undergraduate level are basically a waste of time and have little to no application in real business settings. MBA classes, however, are a different story — as is a lot of graduate work. Engineering is somewhat of an exception here, but the reason is that the first 2 and a half years of any engineering curriculum is basically interchangeable with a hard science (chemistry, physics, etc.) degree plan at most schools. But then there are watered down engineering fields (industrial design, electrical technology, etc.) as well.

I thought we had learned our lesson when many colleges stopped handing out education degrees and made would-be teachers go through an actual substantive curriculum with a few educational classes added on. The current path, along with the attitude you have expressed here, indicate that we are essentially doing the same thing with degrees like business that have been done with education — i.e. graduating students that aren’t very well educated — which is exactly why this thread exists in the first place.

I would propose that we do away with the current programs and go with something like a 3 or 4 part curriculum track: liberal arts (including english, history, etc.); hard science (math, physics, chemistry, etc.); and then one or two “applied” fields such as engineering, business, etc. Those inclined to be a history major would load up on history courses in their liberal arts track but they’d have a better balance of classes. Same with engineering and business. One doesn’t need 33 undergraduate hours of management classes; 15 will do, and the other 15-18 broken up with more math, physics, english, history, etc.

[Robert A Cook PE]

From above:

Among my immediate circle of friends there are several families in which the parents are successful professionals and the kids just don’t have the brains to follow in their parents’ footsteps. Nice enough kids, hardworking and sweet, but either temperamentally or intellectually not up to being doctors, lawyers, or Indian chiefs. One of these families spent $125,000 putting their kid through university only to see her wind up a river-rafting guide in Colorado. Another family is upset because their expensively educated daughter is teaching riding lessons for $8 an hour. Another family is dismayed because their son makes $23000 as a swimming pool manager after getting a costly private education, which he now can’t easily pay for.

Notice the problem here?

The kids (who went to college on their parent's dollars) didn't WANT (or need) what they were told to go to college to get: The PARENTS were indoctrinated (by the government schools and universities) to “want their kids to go to college and get a good education.”

If teenagers (or even their families) had to PAY for college themselves, then the experience would be earned and the kids would take the classes that they wanted and needed. (Engineering, law, medicine, chemistry, ... even some of the social and liberal arts classes.

But when many states offer “free tuition” and when student loans are big and profitable business, and when the government “feels good” (about itself) by promoting college so much - because ALL of government requires college to get government leadership jobs (even librarian and teacher require masters-level classes now) - too many children are forced into the propaganda of college.

When they mentally and emotionally are not ready for it. So college gets toned down and dumbed down - it is little more than what a high school degree was worth.

Because a high school degree is worth less than a 1930-1940-era 8th grade education now.

[ottbmare]

Exactly. I am in complete agreement with you about most of what you say.

But I was one of those kids who really wanted, deserved and appreciated college, and yet I could never have paid for college myself at today’s rates. My daughter is another. Her father was another. But without some kind of help we could not show up at a college—no, not even at State U.

Without financial aid, college would become just an exclusive club for the rich. And if you think the costs of college are going to come down dramatically and become affordable to any hard-working kid if financial aid is withdrawn, I’d have to disagree.

[Robert A Cook PE]

True, very true.

I “paid” for college through a Navy scholarship - then paid it back with ten years of 90 and 150 hour weeks at lower pay for an engineering degree than those in civilian life were getting. Scholarships from hard, long HS hours in competitive math, slide rule and science competitions “earned” a few more dollars for college.

My daughter earned hers as well the same way, aided by GA’s “free” tuition money from those who gamble on the GA lottery. My son? Didn't want any more school than he could get away with - and he earned more in his first five years running a region of oil change shops than she did.

[MEGoody]

So the books used in law schools are not available to people who don't go to college? There can't be study groups unless one is in college?

Sorry, but I think that properly motivated individuals could pass the bar without going to college.

I know it's tough - a lot of people who DO go to college don't pass or have to take the test multiple times to pass. But if someone wants it enough and is smart enough, he/she could do it.

[1L]

>>So the books used in law schools are not available to people who don’t go to college?<<

Sorry, but trust me: you don’t learn what you need to learn in law school by just reading the books. First, law school books are exclusively “case” books; they only contain legal cases, and if you don’t know how to read and analyze a case, you won’t get very far — and you don’t learn that without some interaction. Second, even if you could learn the material adequately by reading, the professors are (ideally) there to teach you to “think like a lawyer.” No matter how good your reading and analyzing skills are, you won’t get this on your own.

>>There can’t be study groups unless one is in college?<<

See above. It would be the blind leading the blind.

>>But if someone wants it enough and is smart enough, he/she could do it.<<

Do what? Pass the bar without law school? Even if they could, they’d be an absolutely terrible lawyer who couldn’t function in the occupation.