Posted on 04/18/2008 11:39:55 AM PDT by Jenny Hatch
UPDATE: Friday April 18
The "Sixteen year old girl." A hoax???
I am SPITTING mad. Texas authorities better have those children back in their mothers arms by tonight.
"A 33-year-old Colorado Springs woman has been questioned about a telephone call that sparked a raid at the polygamist Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints compound in western Texas two weeks ago.
Rozita Swinton was arrested at her home Wednesday night by Colorado Springs police for an incident that occurred in February. Members of the Texas Rangers were also in Colorado Springs as part of their investigation.
"The Texas Rangers were in Colorado Springs (Wednesday) as part of their investigation involving the compound in Texas. They left and have not filed any charges on Rozita Swinton as of this time," said Colorado Springs police spokesman Lt. Skip Arms.
Colorado Springs police said the arrest warrant has been sealed and refused to release any other details, reported Deseret News."
(Excerpt) Read more at naturalfamilyblog.com ...
Probably due to the need not to screw up any criminal cases. The question you really should be asking isn't why Texas took 4 years to act, but why haven't Arizona and Utah done anything about this group for over 70 years.
Was she brainwashed to expect you to rape her at age thirteen?
My parents and in-laws also have a five to eight year gap. However, both women were young adults when they got married -18 - and neither were forced into marriage. In fact, they were in love.
What sort of human would return children to a situation as dangerous as that compound? Do you realize that some of those children are pregnant or have already given birth to children. These are children as young as 13. Who cares if some moron tricked the authorities into raiding that den of screwballism. It got those children away from an obviously disgusting situation.
And what precisely does tht have to do with my questions and ambivalent views on this?
Why ask me a "when did you stop beating your wife?" question. I'm not an advocate for these polygamists but I'm not hysterical either nor am I anti-Mormon though I did think it ok to ask Romney about it ..btw
last nite I asked on two hot threads for someone to reconcile Mormon founding and polygamy with what these folks are/were doing......no takers.
But it gets greyer.....a 19 year old boy with a 15 year old girl.....problem in some states ..not so in others
first time I went to Latin America ....25 years ago.....I saw plenty of 50-70 year old guys with 18 year old mistresses...out on the town....these were big dogs from the countryside in town for business and some action
it’s just how it is a lot of places......anything under 16 or so bugs me admittedly......it’s hard to figure.....so many 15 year old girls today are very active.....some not.
my family and my wife’s are both replete with early teen marriages just 2-3 generations ago....and they did good and stayed together and raised good kids and so forth....poor too
one weird aspect to me is how they do appear to compound raise in a sorta communal group parenting way so these girls know these older men all their lives as pretty close in proximity associates or even cousins I’d guess.....that is icky.
But where do we draw the line on how religious groups practice marriage and procreation.
We are not out there chasing down Muslims who do this...I’m in Nashville with plenty of Kurds and they do it some and nobody says diddly.
Indians and Pakis both arrange seriously young marriages and yes sometimes the girls are 13-14 and the men in their 20s or older.....where are the SWAT teams?
What is the real story with Mormonism?
Both Brigham and Smith had 14 year old brides they impregnated and both apprently procreated with women not formally divorced from the first spouse.
And why did they do this? Expand the hierarchy of the faith? Why didn’t the Borgias think of this.
“Jenny, read through your homepage. Exactly what is this medical freedom you’re preaching? Is that the right to not have vaccinations, or is it a more general resistance to seeking the care of a physician or surgeon?”
Muawiyah,
We go to doctors for emergencies and physical checkups. What I share on my blog is medical self sufficiency. I am a mormon, and my husband has several family lines that descend from poligamous families. I have read quite a bit about poligamy and have strong feelings about it.
I don’t live a poligamous life, but my heart is open to the idea that it is a good lifestyle for some families and I don’t think they should be prosecuted for it. Especially when so many sexual deviants walk unmolested by government.
I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day saints and am a conservative with strong libertarian sensibilities. I would not think of letting my child die without proper medical care, but I believe childbirth to be a natural and safe process (as controversial as that stance may seem) and I use a whole host of alternative health care providers - chiropractic, herbalist, naturopath, homeopath...etc...and we have not vaccinated our children.
To anyone else reading this who belives that I dumped a post and ran, I’ve had a busy weekend with my kids, it is now early monday morning, and only now am I reading through this thread.
So much of what has been said could also be said about members of my faith, which encourages young women to marry early and give the best of herself to bearing and raising children. I learned from the Mitt Romney threads how many, many mormon haters live at Free Republic, and so I don’t feel like bashing with some of you, but I will stand up in defense of religious freedom, and with my background of mormonism and a different understanding of poligamy, have a more moderated view of the lifestyle.
The very same things could be said about my husband marrying me as a young woman and me spending the past twenty years giving birth and nurturing my family. Heck I have had liberals here in Boulder attempt to educate me about how I was so oppressed and in bondage to motherhood and the patriarchy of my husband.
I CHOOSE my lifestyle and have felt so blessed to be provided for by a husband who loves our children and works himself into the ground providing for our family so I can be home with the children.
If these women choose to live the poligamous life, I don’t fault them.
Hope that clarifies.
Jenny Hatch
“last nite I asked on two hot threads for someone to reconcile Mormon founding and polygamy with what these folks are/were doing......no takers.”
I’ll attempt to reconcile it. Many modern mormons feel tremendous shame about polygamy. I don’t.
I think the lifestyle is a tremendous help to young mothers. From the various journals I have read, and the understanding that comes from scripture, poligamy is simply about taking care of mothers and children. When the Bible tells the brother of a deceased man to take care of the wife and children of the dead, does that mean that he dumps his own wife and children in order to care for the widow?
No, it was assumed in ancient Israel that those mothers and children would be cared for.
These scriptures in the bible talk about this phenomenon:
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?search=brother+marry+wife
I know for a fact that Brigham Young had this attitude when he married several of Joseph Smiths wives after the prophet was martyred. He ended up with 27 wives and he said that it was his responsibility and duty to care for those women and children. How is that worse than a man who has 27 sex partners during his life, fathers many children, most of whom are aborted, and yet is assumed to be a “good guy” or “better” guy because he is only married to one wife?
Modern romantic one husband/one wife and the pruddish victorian beliefs of todays christianity are not biblical. All of the patriarchs of the bible lived poligamous lives. The Prophets David and Solomon had thousands of wives, and poligamy is practiced all over the world as a practical way to take care of children. When I read the stories of the day to day lives of poligamous families, having a couple of sister wives around to help with the chores seems like a good idea.
My husband is a descendant of Benjamin Franklin Johnson and his whole biography is online.
http://www.boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/BFJohnson.html
When Joseph Smith asked him for permission to marry his sister, Benjamin told him that if he ever learned that Joseph had deceived him on the principle, then he would kill him. Benjamin went on to have many wives and dozens of children. I dont’ feel any shame about our past, and how I reconcile it was that the whole history of humanity contains ample evidence that poligamy was and is practiced by good god fearing people, sometimes happily and sometimes not.
Modernity has wrongly taught us that marriage between one man and one woman is the only god ordained form of marriage.
The bible tells us quite a different story. I believe if the feds had not gone after poligamists so badly in the late 1800s the LDS church would still be practicing it, because as I said, it is not about sex, it is about taking care of women and children.
I know this may be difficult for casual christians to wrap their minds around, but biblical christians who have a clear understanding of the scriptures KNOW that poligamy was just a practical part of ancient israel.
I’m a pragmatist in my heart, and although it might be tempting to look at anyone who is practicing this lifestyle as a sexual deviant, the fact is that providing women and children with housing and shelter is what Godly and Righteous men do.
I also believe Joseph Smith. When he said that an angel came to him with a sword and told him that if he did not teach the principle to the mormons, he would be destroyed, I figure the polygamous lifestyle is pretty important to Heavenly Father.
How to reconcile mormon history with what the FLDS are doing? It is possible. They are living what they believe is Gods Plan for families. So did the early saints. That is how to reconcile it. Do child molestors and rapists exist in that church? I have no doubt they do, just as I have no doubt that child molestors and rapists exist in all other groups and religions. But I do not believe they should be collectively prosecuted for a lifestyle. I believe each individual perp should be tried and convicted for his or her individual crimes.
And no, I do not believe polygamy should be a crime. As for what age young women should marry, I am open to the idea of seventeen year old girls having the maturity to make that choice. Much below that age and I get a little nervous, and I am very grateful that my nineteen year old and sixteen year old daughters have not been married yet and have never dated or been kissed.
They are saving themselves for someone really special, and I completely support them choosing their own husbands and marrying when they feel the time is right. I was just barely twenty when I married my husband, he was 28 and it was a very young age, but I don’t regret it.
Jenny
Here is the quote from Benjamin Franklin Johnsons biography where he talks about the time when the prophet Joseph Smith taught him about polygamy:
I was now selling goods, keeping a tavern, and doing all the Church business for that town, which was second only to Nauvoo, and I was growing not a little into the idea of getting rich. Yet I did not forget that I was an elder, and not only took part in our meetings at home, but as often as I found opportunity I would preach in the surrounding country to the outside community. The Prophet often came to our town, but after my arrival, he lodged in no house but mine, and I was proud of his partiality and took great delight in his society and friendship. When with us, there was no lack of amusement; for with jokes, games, etc., he was always ready to provoke merriment, one phase of which was matching couplets in rhyme, by which we were at times in rivalry; and his fraternal feeling, in great degree did away with the disparity of age or greatness of his calling.
I can now see, as President George A. Smith afterwards said, that I was then really “the bosom friend and companion of the Prophet Joseph.” I was as welcome at the Mansion as at my own house, and on one occasion when at a full table of his family and chosen friends, he placed me at his right hand and introduced me as his “friend, Brother B. F. Johnson, at whose house he sat at a better table than his own.” Sometimes when at my house I asked him questions relating to past, present and future; some of his answers were taken by Brother William Clayton, who was then present with him, and are now recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants; the one as to what the Lord told him in relation to seeing his face at 85 years of age; also the one as to the earth becoming as a sea of glass, molten with fire. [D&C 130: 9, 14-17] Other questions were asked when Brother Clayton was not present, one of which I will relate: I asked where the nine and a half tribes of Israel were. “Well,” said he, “you remember the old caldron or potash kettle you used to boil maple sap in for sugar, don’t you?” I said yes. “Well,” said he, “they are in the north pole in a concave just the shape of that kettle. And John the Revelator is with them, preparing them for their return.” Many other things of a public or private nature I might here record, but will only note one or two, those pertaining to our own family.
In Macedonia the Johnsons were quite numerous and influential and the envious dubbed us the “Royal Family.” When Joseph heard of this honor conferred upon us by our neighbors, he said the name was and should be a reality; that we were a royal family; and he knowing the intemperance of my father, said that he should yet be a great man and stand at the head of kingdom. On one occasion he blessed my mother and told her that not one of all her children should ever leave the Church; which, up to this, the year 1894, has been the case; and now as a family we number not less than one thousand, not one of the kindred by blood has ever yet apostatized that I know of.
In talking with my mother after the revelation [D&C 132] on plural marriage was given, he told her that when the Lord required him to move in plural marriage, that his first thought was to come and ask her for some of her daughters; and I can now understand that the period alluded to was at Kirtland, where she had three unmarried daughters at home, two of whom died there, and Almira, the other, was sealed to him in Nauvoo; the other two, Nancy M. and Susan E., being sealed to him by proxy since his death.
As I have alluded to the law of plural marriage [D&C 132] I will relate the time and manner in which it was taught to me.
About the first of April, 1843, the Prophet with some of the Twelve and others came to Macedonia to hold a meeting, which was to convene in a large cabinet shop owned by Brother Joseph E. and myself, and as usual he put up at my house. Early on Sunday morning he said, “Come Brother Bennie, let us have a walk.” I took his arm and he led the way into a by-place in the edge of the woods surrounded by tall brush and trees. Here, as we sat down upon a log he began to tell me that the Lord had revealed to him that plural or patriarchal marriage was according to His law; and that the Lord had not only revealed it to him but had commanded him to obey it; that he was required to take other wives; and that he wanted my Sister Almira for one of them, and wished me to see and talk to her upon the subject. If a thunderbolt had fallen at my feet I could hardly have been more shocked or amazed. He saw the struggle in my mind and went on to explain. But the shock was too great for me to comprehend anything, and in almost an agony of feeling I looked him squarely in the eye, and said, while my heart gushed up before him, “Brother Joseph, this is all new to me; it may all be true—you know, but I do not. To my education it is all wrong, but I am going, with the help of the Lord to do just what you say, with this promise to you—that if ever I know you do this to degrade my sister I will kill you, as the Lord lives.” He looked at me, oh, so calmly, and said, “Brother Benjamin, you will never see that day, but you shall see the day you will know it is true, and you will fulfill the law and greatly rejoice in it.” And he said, “At this morning’s meeting, I will preach you a sermon that no one but you will understand. And furthermore, I will promise you that when you open your mouth to your sister, it shall be filled.”
At the meeting he read the parable of the Talents, and showed plainly that to him that hath shall be given more, and from him that had but one should be taken that he seemed to have, and given to him who had ten. This, so far as I could understand, might relate to families, but to me there was a horror in the idea of speaking to my sister upon such a subject, the thought of which made me sick. But I had promised, and it must be done. I did not remember his words, and have faith that light would come, I only thought, “How dark it all looks to me.’ But I must do it, and so told my sister I wished to see her in a room by herself, where I soon found her seated. I stood before her trembling, my knees shaking, but I opened my mouth and my heart opened to the light of the Lord, my tongue was loosened and I was filled with the Holy Ghost. I preached a sermon that forever converted me and her also to the principle, even though her heart was not yet won by the Prophet. And so I had great joy after my tribulation.
He had asked me to bring my sister to the city, which I soon did, where he saw her at my sister’s, the Widow Sherman, who had already been sealed to him by proxy. His brother, Hyrum, said to me, “Now, Brother Benjamin, you know that Brother Joseph would not sanction this if it was not from the Lord. The Lord revealed this to Brother Joseph long ago, and he put it off until the Angel of the Lord came to him with a drawn sword and told him that he would be slain if he did not go forth and fulfill the law.” He told my sister to have no fears, and he there and then sealed my sister, Almira, to the Prophet.
Soon after this he was at my house again, where he occupied my Sister Almira’s room and bed, and also asked me for my youngest sister, Esther M. I told him she was promised in marriage to my wife’s brother. He said, “Well, let them marry, for it will all come right.”
The orphan girl—Mary Ann Hale—that my mother had raised from a child, was now living with us, of nearly the same age as my sister, and I asked him if he would not like her, as well as Almira. He said, “No, but she is for you. You keep her and take her for your wife and you will be blessed.” This seemed like hurrying up my blessings pretty fast, but the spirit of it came upon me, and from that hour I thought of her as a wife that the Lord had given me.
In lighting him to bed one night he showed me his garments and explained that they were such as the Lord made for Adam from skins, and gave me such ideas pertaining to endowments as he thought proper. He told me Freemasonry, as at present, was the apostate endowments, as sectarian religion was the apostate religion.
In the evening he called me and my wife to come and sit down, for he wished to marry us according to the Law of the Lord. I thought it a joke, and said I should not marry my wife again, unless she courted me, for I did it all the first time. He chided my levity, told me he was in earnest, and so it proved, for we stood up and were sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise.
This occurrence is referred to in the life of Joseph Smith as “Spending the evening in giving counsel to Brother Johnson and wife.” At this time I knew that the Prophet had as his wives, Louisa Beeman, Eliza R. Snow, Maria and Sarah Lawrence, Sisters Lyon and Dibble, one or two of Bishop Partridge’s daughters, and some of C. P. Lott’s daughters, together with my own two sisters. And I also knew that Brother J. Bates Noble and others had plural wives, and that the Prophet had sealed to me my first and had given to me a second to be my wife. And I knew of other things in the Prophet’s life and teachings that I will not now write, but I do so well remember his declarations in the meetings of the Saints, that the Lord had revealed to him principles, that should he teach and practice them, those who were now his best friends would become his bitterest enemies.
This was already becoming apparent, and the end of his labors in this life, with the hope of the rest prepared for the faithful was now beginning to fill is weary soul. On one occasion, at Macedonia, after he had preached to a large congregation through the day, and at evening meeting had blessed nineteen children, he said to me, “Let us go home.” We went home, and I found my wife sitting with our first born still unblessed and said, “See now what we have lost by our babe not being at meeting. Brother Joseph replied, “You shall lose nothing, for I will bless him too,” which he did, and then sitting back heavily in a big chair before the fire, and with a deep-drawn breath said, “Oh! I am so tired—so tired that I often feel to long for my day of rest. For what has there been in this life but tribulation for me? From a boy I have been persecuted by my enemies, and now even my friends are beginning to join with them, to hate and persecute me! Why should I not wish for my time of rest?”
His words to me were ominous, and they brought a shadow as of death over my spirit, and I said, “Oh, Joseph! how could you think of leaving us? How as a people could we do without you?” He saw my feelings were sorrowful and said kindly, “Bennie, if I was on the other side of the veil I could do many times more for my friends than I can do while I am with them here.” But the iron had gone into my soul, and I felt that in his words there was a meaning that boded sorrow, and I could not forget them.
In the spring of 1843 I had commenced to erect a large brick residence, and when my sister came to be his wife, since she lived with us, he wished to become part owner for her, and so it was arranged, that I should draw on him for his share, or use proceeds of sales of Church property, all of which, though only verbal, was mutual between us.
Jenny
If you do not think polygamy should be a crime, get the laws changed.
If you think that young women 13, 14, and 15 should be allowed to marry and bear children in a polygamous relationship with much older men, get the laws changed.
If you think that people should marry and raise families from their early teens on, get the laws changed.
If you think marriages between closely related people should be legal, get the laws changed.
If your rationalization is that these men “take care” of their families, and you are convinced there is no effort at massive welfare fraud, then I encourage you to do some investigating.
I have noticed a little mob that moves from thread to thread to thread attacking those that believe in the constitution. They are the government enforcement mob that will scream down all those that support the constitution, and question government ripping 400 plus children from families. Due process, innocent until proven guilty, law need not be in place as the government supporters rally around their God, the all knowing, most wonderful, most loving government. This most loving government can make up any kind of bullcrap it wants to justify any stomp on freedom and rights as long as it is for the children ya see. And the little mob will screach and decry all those supporting freedom and liberty and the rule of law.
Constitution should be banned! It means nothing to them. At this rate, we may see little constitution burning parties being discussed openly here. Religion of all method and manner should be eliminated, and the government is doing its best to do just that. We ought to pray to our real God, the Government. We have come a long way in the this country, a long way. A long way on FR too.
Thank you very much. I don’t know much about polygamy but this notion that teen girls being married and having sex is the same as pedophilia strikes me as odd.
My ancestors were married in their teens.
However....some of the other allegations about Jeff’s group like this Jessop woman makes do trouble as does the notion of the alleged welfare fraud and turning boys out.
Can you share your perspective on that?
One thing I have noticed about polygamy in Arab cultures that is dangerous is that the wealthy men can get the lion’s share and one ends up with a lot of frustrated angry young men.
Probably for the simple reason that absent evidence of child abuse there is little reason to mess with these people. Outside of the apparent child abuse they are typically very law-abiding folks.
then other folks here claim anything under 18 is a crime and child abuse.
me personally I'd say 16 with parents consent which obviously is a given in this group
but I don't think 14 year olds marrying is pedophilia....distasteful but not pedophilia....it would be pederasty actually I think perhaps.
my great grandfather married my great grandfather at 14. he was 19.
that is the age difference Jeffs sanctioned and for which he got 10 years Fed time is it not?
I don't have all the answers here but i am sure learning more than I ever figured about something I never knew about
I have no doubt that 75 years ago the ages stuff while raising eyebrows would hardly have raised the howls.
Course this Jessop lady raises real abuse questions on 8 year olds and child abuse and folks wonder about incest overlaps?
hell if I know but if arranged marriages and polygamy are cause enough then we better get ready...fair number of folks do that....claims are there are 30,000 polys in that area of Utah/Nevada
Because if the kids were not being abused before the statistical truth is that in foster care at least some of them definitely will be abused.
Now, regarding the Mitt Romney threads, there was a lot of pure, unadulterated hatred of Baptists being expressed on those threads. I missed the hatred of Mormons though ~ looked like they were dragging Huckabee around in the dirt pretty good ~ even lied about him having the VP thing locked up ~ turns out McCain wants Romney in that role.
So there!(regarding those threads).
Regarding polygamy, no one in history has ever gotten away with fostering overt polygamy on a large scale and not had all these other evils come along with it. I think it has something to do with sexualizing society and finding out just how far that sexualization goes ~ right down to pre-pubescent children.
Okay, the violation of child labor laws young boys as labor to underbid contracts, the “spiritual marriage” of underage females to already legally married much older males, the use of those “breeders” to collect welfare to “unwed mothers,” the confusion (or ignorance) about who is whose child (designed to obfuscate child sexual abuse in the very young teens, imho), the high incidence of a birth defect virtually unknown in the rest of the world due to inbreeding—all those things make the investigation very valid and worthwhile in my opinion.
I’m willing to wait for the results of the DNA tests to find out what’s going on. I don’t expect the biological fathers to have stuck around to get prosecuted, though, I think they’re long gone, replaced by others; again, my opinion.
I think the judge is doing the right thing in these cases.
And I’m just about done with the discussion. Apparently the same talking points are being used by all those supporting the “reasonable live-and-let-the-polyg-sects-live-position, over and over, with no acknowledgement of even reading the other side’s numerous links showing the massive serious problems uncovered at other sect locations.
I'm seriously getting tired of this kind of abject bigotry coming from too many FReepers. Just because someone takes issue with the Constitutionality of what is going on here does not mean that they are Mormons of any stripe. And the repeated ignorant comments that anyone defending the FLDS is a mainstream LDS deny the fact that mainstream LDS would just as soon see the FLDS eradicated.
ENOUGH!!!!!
Regardless of any other consideration, due process is still the law in this country no matter who we're talking about. If people are to be smeared and denounced for defending other people's Constitutional rights on FREE REPUBLIC of all places, then all is lost.
We may as well burn the Constitution and be done with it.
Because if even the FLDS are not secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures then none of us are.
I’m not condoning polygamy or child abuse.
I’m asking questions....
I’m just trying to figure it out and give my opinions on the many aspects of all of it.
Some folks here get hysterical and think any questioning about the whole deal means that poster is complicit.
I’m Southern Baptist, never knew diddly about Mormons or Polygamy much.
I’ve been pretty clear about what troubles me, what does not, what I have questions about and what reservations I have....probably the main one being that women under 18 marrying older women is pedophilia or child abuse.
I’m ambivalent on some of it....not on all of it though and I have questions about if we are going to now go after all polygamists and arranged early marriage groups?
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