Posted on 05/26/2006 10:47:11 PM PDT by catholicfreeper
I had doctors appointments most of the day, and while I was in the car I kept switching around on the radio. I pulled up Rush and couldnt listen more than a few minutes. What I heard was a disappointing, strange, paranoia-feeding rant on how the moderate Republicans and Democrats in the Senate have a deliberate plan afoot to enlarge the number of victims and people who will need welfare services so as to enlarge government
Its all a plot and a conspiracy, you see nothing could possibly simply be about stupid and lackluster career politicians trying to finally, finally, finally do something about an issue no one has wanted to touch for 30 years and doing it haphazardly, fearfully and imperfectly, and with the usual suspects trying to add their own flourishes, which must always be batted down, whether the issue is illegal immigration or almost anything else.
No, no. Its a plot! Its a conspiracy, meant to bring down America and put the conservatives in their place! To create a permanent underclass! To enlarge government, create more victims and raise our taxes! (what nonsense were in a freaking war and spending more than ever, yet our revenues are growing thanks to the tax cuts its funny how, when it suits a need, suddenly taxes will have to be raised )
Maybe I should launch a conspiracy theory of my own say oh, something silly, like maybe this hysteria is just the conservatives doing everything they can to foment enough discord and discontent to create the demand for a third party candidate.
Which worked out so well for all of us in 1992. Hey, one conspiracy theory is as good as the next, isnt it?
Now, I grant you, some of what is in this Senate immigration bill is objectionable and must be striken - it makes no sense at all for illegals to have better job-protection and benefits than American citizens. Social Security entitlements? I dont think so. The idea of giving Mexico veto power over a fence or barrier idea is ludicrous.
But for heavens sake, the thing is going to go to Congress, its going to get cleaned up and turned around - what has come out of the senate will not be the thing that (assuming anything actually gets passed) will be passed. There is some evidence that something workable may actually emerge from all of this initial hoo-ha.
I know there are different opinions on the issue of these illegals, and everyone, on every side, has a point but I was extremely disheartened by what I heard on the radio, and by some of what I am seeing in blogs and in my email. I had to turn Rush off - there was something so insideous about the ship them all back, rhetoric flying between him and his callers that it was making my flesh feel crawly. Round them up and ship them back, devote a whole law-enforcement team to it, we can get rid of all of them in 7 years, Rush! Stunning. Appalling. I couldnt believe what I was hearing.
Aside from the legal and moral ramifications of trying to round them all up - I got out of the car thinking, are they forgetting that we are talking about human beings, here? Many of whom have been here for years, initially through legal means, and who have created lives? People with lives and families who - like how they got here or not - are HERE and are mostly contributing to society in positive ways? Honestly, the folks on the radio sounded extremely narrow and over-the-top. The humanity of the illegals seemed as unmentionable to them as the humanity of a baby-in-utero is to a feminist.
And funnily enough, I didnt hear anyone complaining about the annual influx of illegal Irish immigrants who come in via Montauk and stay. But theyre charmers, arent they? Good senses of humor, they work and they dont ever cause trouble right?
Build a wall, by all means. Make sure you build it deep, so tunneling is difficult. Arm it and stand guards. Im all for it. But this overheated rhetoric, this astonishing willingness by too many to keep blowing on the flames until something erupts this is not good.
I cannot buy into this idea that suddenly America will be overthrown unless 11-12 million illegals are shipped out, no matter what the story is I also cannot buy into the idea that there is a conspiracy afoot to create a socialist state, anymore than I buy the idea that this brouhaha is a conspiracy on the right to form a third party. But what do I know? Maybe everything is a grand conspiracy, after all. In which case, everyone is working at cross-purposes and all of this sound and fury may signify nothing
I still believe angels ride in whirlwinds.
I also believe that Hispanics are the upcoming huge voter bloc in this nation, and that most of them (not the A.N.S.W.E.R. rowdies or the useful idiots who exist in EVERY ethnic group) are fairly conservative types of folks, and the conservatives are doing all they can to convince the Hispanics that they will never be welcome in the GOP. I have emails from Hispanics who have worked on GOP campaigns and contributed to GOP causes and who are dazed and feeling very much like they are not welcome. One fellow - Mexican/German - of immigrant parents, has gone from supporting the initial idea that immigrants should be encouraged to come here legally to deciding that the conservative tone has crossed a line where he cannot follow.
I am concerned about people running so hot on this issue - with the heat being enhanced by the bellows blowing on it via talk radio and some blogs - I am concerned that someone is going to get hurt. Im concerned that people are losing their heads over this.
Oh, Anchoress, the whole nation is going to be hurt if we dont ship them all back and seal the borders and blah, blah, blah
Are we? I have a plumber friend who owns his own business, and he cant find young white or black men to come learn the trade under him. The black kids all want to be rappers and athletes, and the white kids think the sweat is beneath them. The Asian kids are all going to college to become doctors. But the Hispanic kids want to learn. They want to work and support themselves, they want to learn the language so they can enter the marketplace. I hear a lot of sneering about the jobs Americans dont want to do line but the truth is, while the line may be just a line it has some (limited) basis in fact.
70 or 80 years ago, my own ancestors were coming in, legally, and learned to hang drywall and fix automobiles and fight fires. Yes, they were legal the nation had well-run, functional programs to handle a huge influx. Had such a program not been in place, they would have come, anyway and they would have been illegal!
I wonder why it is that we do not, today have a well-run, functional immigration program to handle the huge influx of people who wish to live here. Why arent we WORKING on creating such a program? Why isnt that part of any immigration bill - the reform of the INS?
Were going to need our immigrants as the boomers retire and weigh heavy on our SocSec system and their children barely reproduce at replacement levels. Why cant we bring back the idea of Ellis Island - create an Ellis Island West, so to speak which would prevent the illegality of our immigrants.
That might be helpful, you know? Make em legal, get em paying taxes Sure, some people called my grandfather a filthy wop and my other grandfather a lazy mick and they bitched because the carousel at Coney Island suddenly played Italian hurdy-gurdy instead of genteel songs from the gay 90s, but everyone adjusted. The nation grew stronger.
Alexandra has a good post up on the issue, and she ends by linking to this very interesting partial transcript of an interview between Rush and Tony Snow.
Funny thing about this interview I saw it linked to yesterday at another right-wing blog, but when I went back to access it, the link had - for unexplained reasons - been taken down. Once I finally got a chance to listen to it, (thanks to a pal) my sense was that Rush was not convincing in his arguments and he knew it. He sounded tentative and uneasy the whole time, and I came away thinking Snow got the better him and had been entirely too convincing for Rushs liking. And I am not a Rush-hater by any means. Ive often admired his skill and enjoyed his humor but lately
I wrote a few days ago:
The right has a disproportionate number of Christians in its tent, and Christians are supposed to know a thing or two about forgiveness and second-chances. By the light of Christ, a whore is not forever a whore and a thief is not forever a thief. Are we conservative Christians going to forget our own second chances - some of them known only to God and ourselves - and declare that while we might not always be wretches, an illegal is always an illegal and there is no mercy, no chance to be something more
I cant believe that. Cant accept it. Wont be part of it. Our Lord demands more from us than a shrill dehumanization of what He has created, some demagoguery and a quick look-away as we shout, ship em back! Bad! All Bad!
There are no negatives in Christ.
I also put forth my own admittedly simplistic and probably unrealistic idea:
Maybe the answer is something Ive been thinking about for a little while - a sort of registry in which a guest-worker who has been here for a while and has demonstrated his peaceable intentions would register and pay a recurring fee (not a tax, which would give rise to demands for representation and votes, but a fee - a usable source of revenue for the local government) and in exchange have the right to work without being harassed or having to look over his shoulder all the time. Perhaps these registration centers would offer classes in English for nominal fees, to help them in their assimilation. Such a registry might even be able to eventually offer affordable group health insurance to take some of the burden off of the hospitals (and the rest of us). Okay, maybe its a stupid or naive idea. I never said I was brill. Thats why Im not a community leader. But someone, somewhere has an idea that will work.
I seem to be losing friends over this issue which is not my choice - but there you go. I cannot get on the train with the people who are spitting mad and convinced that the nation is utterly doomed, and will die quickly unless their EXACT RECIPE is followed. There is just something really wrong with that - with the whole mindset. And there is an undercurrent of something - not among the friends I am losing so much as in the blogs and on the radio - I cant put my finger on, but I dont like it. I cant embrace it.
If your convictions demand that you no longer read me, that you de-link me, that you consider me unfit to be a friend, a conservative, a woman, a Christian, or whatever well Im sorry to hear that, but so be it. I agree with some of what you say, I support some of the measures you propose but I cannot go where you want me to go, and I cannot fume and boil and roil and churn as you clearly wish I would. And I cannot embrace the hate - yes, real hate - that I am seeing roll off some of you like fog off the sea. Nothing good ever comes from embracing the hate.
Here I stand, I can do no other.
Our battle is not with the Senators who voted on the "Senate Version" on the bill....the two bill are "oceans" apart.. with the house version being a MUCH BETTER BILL !! our battle is with the Senators who will go to conference with house.. which I just found out will be ALL MEMBERS of the Judiciary Committee and then some additional Senators yet to be named by Reid and Frist !!!...
WE NEED TO LET THESE FOLKS KNOW that we SUPPORT THE HOUSE VERSION !! NOT THE SENATE VERSION !!! now get er done !!
---> for now we can focus our efforts on the JUDICIARY COMMITTEE MEMEBERS !!!
Arlen Specter Orrin G. Hatch Patrick J. Leahy Charles E. Grassley Edward M. Kennedy Jon Kyl Joseph R. Biden, Jr. Mike DeWine Hrbert Kohl Jeff Sessions Dianne Feinstein Lindsey Graham Russell D. Feingold John Cornyn Charles E. Schumer Sam Brownback Richard J. Durbin Tom Coburn
I have written an OPEN LETTER to the conferees and I encouge EVERYONE who cares about this to do the same.... feel free to copy/edit/distribute my letter..
--- The black kids all want to be rappers and athletes, and the white kids think the sweat is beneath them. The Asian kids are all going to college to become doctors. But the Hispanic kids want to learn.---
Nice stereotype! Not much to do with reality though.
No facts, no reasons, just strawman arguments, and tired old rhetoric.
Well, I ma not sure I am guilty of Biblical or Christian liberalism here. It just not very clear to me that in some of the Biblical passages that the Holy SPirit is trying to enlighten us about immigration
The answer is no but see post 38 for my fuller explanation
I have no "target audience" assignment. IN fact if you noticed I was among several here whose main preoccupation the last couple of weeks was the NOLA elections and making sure a Dem Family(Landrieus)was wounded. I have to point out that this obsession with agents and infiltrators gets bizarre. There is a whole room on another conservative forum where they comment on threads here and speculate who is being paid by the RNC.
So true, I have to admit its quite startling how this anti free trade movement got such foothold in the conservative movement. Its always been there but not like this. In part, I think its become associated with many people in the immigration debate. I was on some immigration forums last night and saw threads devoted to the subject. I saw some thread yesterday talking about how the Govt had planned to merge Mexico, Canada, and the USA together. Well the same guy that authored this article also is the co author with Gilchrist on a book on the minutemen. At times, I am wondering what is tgoing on.
Amen to all you said....you can count me in the latter camp.Just mind boggling to observe our own gov. so involved in doing everything they can to destroy us as a sovereign, independent nation. The past administrations, both Dem. and Rep. are equally responsible.
Makes me heartsick to know my grandkids and their kids will never know the America I grew up in.Most of America is "asleep at the wheel" and by the time they wake up, it'll be far too late. I 'm thinking, especially after the fiasco we've been witnessing these past few weeks with this illegal mess, that we may well be too far down the slippery slope to be able to turn back.
Thank you, Leni!
I've been waiting for some reaction
about this poster...or should I say
poseur?
Main Entry: po·seur
Pronunciation: pO-'z&r
Function: noun
Etymology: French, literally, poser, from poser
: a person who pretends to be what he or she is not : an affected or insincere person
So far...crickets
The Holy Family went where God told them to go, end of story. Whether Egypt was aware of their presence or not is not only unknowable to you, but completely irrelevant to the topic of illegal immigration.
It just not very clear to me that in some of the Biblical passages that the Holy SPirit is trying to enlighten us about immigration
Speaking of clarity, that sentence doesn't have any. Are you trying to say "It is just NOT very clear to me" or "It is just NOW very clear to me"?
If it's the latter, I am not impressed. At the 2003 General Convention, a majority of Episcopal bishops said with a straight face that the Holy Spirit was trying to enlighten the world about the sanctity of committed same-sex relationships, through the election of an active homosexual as Bishop of New Hampshire.
Oh, and nice way to weasel out of supporting your statement about the nation-states of Biblical times vs. today.
No, they do not. This is where you've fundamentally gone wrong. There is no enforcement mechanism, and no bureaucracy exists or will be funded to ever create one. The provisions--even if correct in principle (they are not)--would still fail the smell test because they cannot be enforced.
I have heard 11 years in some proposals before they can even apply to be citizens. I really don't care if people want to add more provisions.
Nor should you care, because none of those provisions would ever be enforced. The illegals will be permitted to use fraudulent documents in support of their longevity claims.
Here, I've got it! Let's add this provision: All illegals will need to fly to the moon before they can apply for citizenship. Well, now I feel better. Now McCain can claim we should all feel better because no illegal can ever meet the requirement. Except, of course, there will be plenty of them who can confirm absolutely that their name is Neil Armstrong.
I really do marvel at the cognitive dissonance of supposedly intelligent people who think we can't round up 14 million illegals on one hand, but on the other hand believe we can actually verify all their documents, their time in country, and certify their English proficiency as well. What, if any, thought process are you using?
Again, the family issue is what probally drives me most as to this issue.
Like most liberals, you're a victim of your own false compassion. If these folks would work as hard to destroy the socialist economy of Mexico as they do when they get here, they'd be living in a country as prosperous as Canada or the United States. By coming here, they are denying the 90% of people who stay in Mexico any hope of ever having a decent country. And so are you. And so are the criminal employers who hire them.
Your "compassion" is false. I have two former illegals in my own family who were given Amnesty in 1986. I think they're great people, and they think that they've been treated well in America--but they haven't been. They've participated in an immoral system that uses human beings for hard physical labor under substandard, submarket conditions and then discards them when they're used up. They have no pension, no savings, and no Social Security (they were over 60 years old in 1986). This isn't going to be remedied by your Amnesty program. The same employers who hired illegals after the 1986 Amnesty will simply refuse to hire the newly minted Americans, and continue to go with undocumented workers. The new "Americans" will refuse to use their documented status so they can continue to be employed by people who have as little regard for the law as they have.
Please do tell me how a person who claims to be a Christian can be a willing participant in a system that involves this level of criminality and greed by American employers, and destroys a country that has plenty of Christian, hardworking people, and is fabulously rich in natural resources to boot.
This isn't compassion, and it isn't Christian. It's an empathy that allows you to feel good about yourself for pretending to be doing something "kind" and "generous," when in fact you're helping to destroy peoples lives; when in fact, you're an ENABLER.
In short: it's liberalism.
Get off the soapbox dear. Christianity requires a serious moral vision, and you don't have one any more than does the man handing a bum a dollar for a drink, because he wants him to go away.
I'm with you on this one. If John Cornyn could write the Senate bill, I think we could have some workable, compassionate as well as just. And we wouldn't have to jettison our sovereignty, laws or identity to do it.
"Yes I was stunned hearing how it was all a plot by "Big Business" to keep wages down and oppress the "little guy" Excuse me? When did Rush become a Perotista? That was their argument about NAFTA."
Apples v Oranges. I am a NAFTA supporter, and you dont have to be against NAFTA to know our immigration system is broken down and that illegal immigration is creating tremendous costs and negative consequences for us.
Now, what is a small Govt, pro-rule-of-law, realistic conservative to do? What *NOT* to do is an amnesty/legalization that will surely make the problem worse.
If you believe in free markets, then you believe in incentives, you believe PEOPLE RESPOND TO INCENTIVES.
ANY FREE MARKET CONSERVATIVE HAS TO CONCLUDE THAT AN AMNESTY WILL RESULT IN MORE FUTURE ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION. People see an incentive given that rewards illegal immigration behavior - WE GET MORE OF IT.
"Then it was the "Elites want to send your jobs to Mexico" which Rush laughed at. NOW, it "The Elites want Mexicans to come here and take your job" and it is RUSH saying it!"
Given that the senate bill was written by special interests (how do I know? I *read* the bill! It stinks!), it's not unfathonable. Moreover, seeing explicit actions by businesses to hire from illegal immigrant labor pools, to outsource, etc., all make people realize this as part of reality.
I mean, seriously, can it be *disputed* that businesses are wanting a bigger labor pool? It seems the debate is between one side saying "jobs that Americans wont do" and another side saying "taking away jobs from Americans". Neither is fully right nor wrong on that, but there are plenty of working stiffs who will tell you they cant make the same wages they used to at certain trades now plyed by illegals.
"When the "True Conservatives" start using the same Class warfare and economic arguements of the Wacko Left, it all over."
Ahem, you know the Senate bill *PROPONENTS* put in the Davis-Bacon regulations? Did you know that Ted Kennedy put in self-sponsorship, so the 'temp worker', even if unemployed, could become a permanent resident. You know that they made it 'just cause' firing, instead of 'at will' for citizens. Again, free market conservatives are supposed to ahate that stuff. CIRA bill is loaded with it.
The Senate CIRA bill regulates wages, employment contracts, and industries in ways are true free marketeers would find appalling.
Bottom-line: Being pro-free-market and against the Senate CIRA bill and its amnesty is a consistent position.
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