Posted on 08/21/2005 5:35:07 PM PDT by bizzyblog
As a 20-year Macintosh user going back to when the machines didn't even have hard drives, I confess to being a big fan of Apple and the Mac OS.
I also confess to being a nearly-insufferable Mac evangelist (some would say "delete 'nearly'") until about seven years ago, when, as a result of Windows 98, the differences between Windows and the Mac as a platform for the average user became so small that they didn't matter. Those differences remain small, despite the exceptionally cool advances in the Mac OS through Jaguar, Panther, and Tiger.
(snip)
Also cooling my ardor for the Mac is the remarkable air of condescension still present in "the Mac community," which is pretty amazing considering Apple's puny market share. I believe that the attitudes of too many current Mac users prevent a lot of those who might consider ditching Windows from doing so, simply because they don't want to be seen as joining what has almost become a cult (some would say "delete 'almost'").
So, in the interest of knocking Mac users down a peg or two, I offer three reasons, based on news of the past week or so, that we in "the Mac community" should cool it on the arrogance. At the same time, I'll knock down three myths about the Mac and its users (bolds are mine in all three reasons).
REASON 1--Exploding the myth that Mac users are so much more civilized than the rabble who use PCs:
Seventeen injured during used laptop sale
(Excerpt) Read more at bizzyblog.com ...
Umm you can set the corners in OSX to act in that way. Go to a corner and every window on your desktop is scaled down and put next to each other, click on the one you want and it gains focus and its previous size and position. Your lack of knowledge is not Apples lack of ability..
I believe Apple is a bit more difficult to use now with all their widgets and lack of a taskbar. Not sure if you can add one though.
I don't think that's the same thing as an always visible taskbar. It's more like the autohide taskbar (which most users don't use).
The issue is not mine I use real operating systems *nix. The issue is my 60 yo mother who has far fewer problems with a mac than she ever did a PC..
I am talking about OS 9
I have not used OSX.
Just trying to define a bet.
However, with Windows offering so many targets why waste your time on Mac? And that was my original point.
So they can claim to be the first. Hackers run on pride. Also, even though Mac is a small percentage it would give that one first virus writer a pool of over 20 million machines all to himself.
The primary reason for this isn't because of the OS, it's because of the tight hardware control which includes drivers. Which also leads to the higher cost of Apples. If a manufacturer controls the OS and hardware the two had better work well together. Many windows issues are caused by poorly written hardware drivers. This isn't an excuse for Windows as much as it's just a statement of fact. Windows is popular because of the cheap PC model, so the price is a poorer user experience due to poorly written drivers. Although it has gotten much better lately, especially when only using sighned drivers.
He wouldn't really have a pool of over 20 million machines. First they'd all have to be online and exposed to the Internet. You'd have to scan millions of boxes to find one susceptiple Mac box. So if I wrote an exploit against an unpatched OS X box, what are the odds I'd find 20 million available to attack? And like I said, no one would really sing his praises because the damage would be very limited and the fame gained wouldn't be worth the risk and time committed to writing the virus.
The same reason why my OS I wrote in 2001 hasn't been attacked to date. Other than a few M$ lovers saying see it was hacked, no one else would care.
Well, all I know is that I'm loving this PowerPC G3 with 384 MB of memory running OS X more and more each day. (lets see a PC with equivalent processing power run XP!)
Macintosh does drive me nuts though with their stupid incompatibility issues (some programs just aren't written for them), and those that are, sometimes (apparently) can't be updated, like my Adobe Reader. I have version 5.2 and it's always telling me "There's an updated version of Adobe online" but when I go to the website, the only one available for my OS (10.1.5) is the same version I already have! I think Adobe is on version 7 by now, and I'm stuck back in version 5, simply because I don't have the latest OS.
When Apple fixes it so that you don't have to have the absolute LATEST OS to run the latest applications, then that's really going to be the selling point for me. That, and the incompatibility issue.
As far as security goes, I haven't had to install virus protection, firewall, or spyware program one on this machine and it's still running like a charm. Anyone who says Windows and Macs are the same, security wise, is absolutely wrong, and this comes from a computer dummy like me. Even I can see that Windows is as leaky as a sieve.
You know, For-q, you really are an idiot. I did not say that YOU would win $25,000 for creating a Mac Virus... and that, incidentally is not a "bet" but a challenge offered by one particular company... I said that a prize had been offered and cancelled for legal reasons. I also pointed out that previous such challenges offered when there were no legal ramifications went unclaimed.
Nor have I said that your challenge to "prove that a virus can be done on Mac OSX" is unnecessary. Go ahead and try... others have and fallen short.
Also you DID SAY "70,000 viruses for Windows vs. Zero for the Mac". If that's not saying that the virus is not possible then I don't know what is.
Yes, I did say that AND provided sources... something you have not. In fact, a credible and knowledgable source that I quoted stated that as of August 10, 2005, "Windows, at last count, had 97,467 viruses vs. 0 for Apple's Mac OS X." You apparently have a reading problem since you seem to think that my statement says that a Mac OSX virus is not possible... let me tell you what that says... It does not say that a Mac OSX virus is impossible; it says that "Windows, at last count, had 97,467 viruses vs. 0 for Apple's Mac OS X."
Or when you claim you don't need virus protection nor a firewall with a Mac means that viruses are possible and that you're just too ignorant to run one.
You call us ignorant. The only one around here demonstrating ignorance is you, For-Q; you are completely ignorant of OSX and Macintoshes. When a virus for Mac OSX is found in the wild, then we will reconsider paying money to protect us from something that as of this moment DOES NOT EXIST.
When you say that a Mac virus exists... you are either refering to viruses that could attack the old Mac OS or you are referring to a couple of proofs of concepts vulnerabilities such as the "Opener Worm" also referred to as "Renepo"... which is merely a script that requires the user to install and run.
Opener (AKA Renepo-A) is a shell script that can't be installed without Admin privileges (I.E. the user must install it, providing an administrator user name and password - Swordmaker). It isn't spreading. A thread on Macintouch reports an isolated example of a Mac user finding Opener on their system, which prompted a brainstorming session about the nature of the malware on the forum. The interest focused on the hacker tool in the Mac community is largely generated because of the malware's rarity value.
From the Opener Rootkit script itself:
You need an admin level user name and password or physical access (boot from a CD or firewire, ignore permissions on the internal drive) to install this ...Or the MP3Concept Trojan horse touted by Intego...
This Trojan horse, MP3Concept (MP3Virus.Gen), exploits a weakness in Mac OS X where applications can appear to be other types of files. The Trojan horse's code is encapsulated in the ID3 tag of an MP3 (digital music) file. This code is in reality a hidden application that can run on any Macintosh computer running Mac OS X. Mac OS X displays the icon of the MP3 file, with an .mp3 extension, rather than showing the file as an application, leading users to believe that they can double-click the file to listen to it. But double clicking the file launches the hidden code, which can damage or delete files on computers running Mac OS X, then iTunes to play the music contained in the file, to make users think that it is really an MP3 file . While the first versions of this Trojan horse that Intego has isolated are benign, this technique opens the door to more serious risks.
However, this proof-of-concept trojan was also handled quickly and STILL required an install admin password. Intego spread FUD about this potential exploit, offering to sell their Mac anti-virus software... which again, only strips out Windows and pre-OSX Mac viruses. Within a week, it no longer worked.
This proof-of-concept seems to be what Intego found, and then proceeded to craft an accurate, but very alarmist press release around. While the concept definitely seems to be sound, and is something that OS X users should keep in mind when accepting files from untrusted sources, there does not appear to actually be a malicious attack of any sort currently propagating across the 'net aimed at OS X users, now matter how much FUD Intego puts into their Security Alert.
Neither one of these is a virus. They do not meet the requirement of a self-propagating, self-replicating malicious program capable of independently infecting other computers. At best they are trojans.
Both of these and other OSX vulnerabilities with potential exploits have been posted on FreeRepublic and discussed. I either posted the original article or pinged the Mac Ping list members.
Your proposal is entirely unreasonable... and borders on abuse of the system.
It's not the number of infections, it's the fame of being the first, the l33t who was the one who took down OS X. In any case, numbers don't matter. Mac OS prior to OS X has lots of viruses even with the tiny marketshare, and there are probably at least as many copies of OS X running as the older OSs. The writers obviously thought pre OS X was worth their time. Why not now, when Mac is more popular than ever?
You said you could write one. I challenged you to prove it... and pointed out that contests to do it had gone unwon... numerous times. I can't help if that you have a reading comprehension problem. I posted that comment in PAST TENSE... meaning that there HAD BEEN challenges. I did not say you would win $25,000. I merely pointed you to the latest one that was withdrawn. I still challenge you to provide a proof-of-concept virus that will infect OSX Macintoshes... meeting the criteria for computer viruses. You don't have to let it out into the wild.
Does that mean Windows is superior? No it just means I know what I'm doing. And once again writing virus for Macs is a waste of time. But keep on spouting off...eventually some hacker will say hell just to shut you up I'll do it. Just like the Linux folks use to claim they couldn't be attacked by viruses...eventually they got to a big enough install base and now most (not all) don't make such silly claims.
Now let's see who has the reading comprehension problem. Now if you're Bill Clinton or a democRAT, I'll forgive you on this one as to them it all depends on what the meaning of the word "Is" is.
Ready?
Now watch this closely as I don't want to confuse you too much.
You said...
The challenge is out there... write your virus.
Now in the circles I run around we would take that to mean the challenge currently exists and can be won. Now unless you've mastered time travel, how IS the challenge out there?
So you're saying that an exploit can't be written to take advantage of that exploit? You know not 100% of the machines have the patch applied, right? But like I said earlier, there are enough patched so that it isn't worth the time for a hacker to attack.
Circular logic doesn't work well with programming nor with trying to win arguments.
I must be missing a post or not reading it properly, but I don't see where I said I could write a virus prior to your challenge. Can you please point me to the post you're referring to? Based on what I see you say the challenge is out there and I ask questions about it. But never prior to that did I say I could write one (at least not that I read...but I'm asking as I may have missed it).
Maybe you should say I find macs pre 1999 incredibly annoying for lacking a taskbar..
BTW MacOS pre-X was crap, Ill agree with you on that anytime..
If the end sate goal is not ease of use we can all give up and install Linux from source..
No offense, but in that case your knowledge of Macs is woefully out of date. OS X is as much advanced over OS 9 as Windows XP is over Windows 3.1.
Now N3WBI3...I've seen many post by you where you slam windows 2000 and it's not even supported much longer. I don't know when OS9 came out, so it may be quite a bit older than 2000 though.
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