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Kerry's Rapid Response team respond by addressing the facts? Medals
US Newswire ^ | 8/31/2004 | usnewswire.com

Posted on 08/31/2004 9:52:12 PM PDT by crushelits

Kerry: Swift Boat Vets for Bush Ad Fact Check - 'Medals'

To: National Desk, Political Reporter

Contact: Chad Clanton or Phil Singer, 202-464-2800, both of Kerry-Edwards 2004

WASHINGTON, Aug. 31 /U.S. Newswire/ -- Following is a release of Kerry-Edwards 2004:

"Let's take this garbage off the air. Let's get on to address the future of the American people and all that rests on this country. All George Bush has to offer is fear and smear," said former Georgia Senator Max Cleland.

FACT CHECK

AD TITLE: "Medals"

DATE: 8/30/04

PAID FOR BY: Bob Perry, Harlan Crow and Other Texas Friends of GeorgeBush, Karl Rove & Karen Hughes

Voice Over: "Symbols. They represent the best things about America. Freedom...Valor... Sacrifice."

VO: "Symbols, like the heroes they represent, are meant to be respected."

VO: "Some didn't share that respect...and turned their backs on their brothers."

Kerry video from 1971: "...renounce the symbols this country gives...and that was the medals themselves...I gave back - I can't remember - six, seven, eight, nine."

VO: "How can the man who renounced his countries symbols now be trusted?"

VO: "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth is responsible for the content of this advertisement."

Bush Veterans Group Has a Problem Telling the Truth

Associated Press: "Swift Boat Writer Lied on Cambodia Claim" (AP, 8/25/04)

Washington Post: "Records Counter a Critic of Kerry- Fellow Skipper's Citation Refers To Enemy Fire" (8/19/04)

New York Times: "The Group's Arguments Have Foundered on Other Contradictions." (8/20/04)

New Details Reveal Swift Boat Vets Closer to Bush & Rove Than Previously Thought $40 Million Contract From the Bush Administration And a "Swift Shift In Stories" "Four days ago, retired naval Rear Adm. William L. Schachte Jr. seconded accusations made by the group Swift Boat Veterans for Truth seeking to discredit Democratic presidential nominee John F. Kerry's record in Vietnam. But since then, Democrats have discovered that Schachte is also a long-standing supporter of President Bush and a lobbyist whose client FastShip Inc. recently won a $40 million grant from the federal government. According to a March 18 legal filing by Schachtes firm, Blank Rome, Schachte was one of the lobbyists working for FastShip on issues such as the effort to win funding for a new marine cargo terminal. On Feb. 2, Philadelphia-based FastShip announced that it would receive $40 million in federal funding for the project." (Washington Post, 8/30/04)

-- Smear Boat Vet Law Partner Chair's RNC Convention. "In addition, David Norcross, Schachte's colleague in the Washington office of Blank Rome, is chairman of this week's Republican convention in New York. Records also show that Schachte gave $1,000 to Bush's 2000 and 2004 campaigns." (Washington Post, 8/30/04)

"4th Prez Guy Tied to Anti-Kerry Ads" "A fourth Bush campaign official has been linked to a veterans group hammering Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry's Vietnam War heroism. GOP convention Chairman David Norcross practices law in the same D.C. firm, Blank Rome, as William Schachte, a retired Navy admiral who says Kerry did not deserve one of his Purple Heart medals, Time magazine reported yesterday. Schachte is aligned with the anti- Kerry group Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, which has dominated the campaign in recent weeks with accusations that the former Swift boat skipper is lying about how he got his war medals." (NY Daily News, 8/30/04)

Bush-Cheney '04 Lawyer Becomes Second Campaign Official to Resign for Ties to Swift Boat Ads. "Benjamin Ginsberg, a lawyer for the Bush campaign, resigned Wednesday, a day after acknowledging that he had given legal advice to the anti-Kerry group. Ginsberg said he never told the Bush campaign what he discussed with the group or vice versa, and didn't advise the group on ad strategies. The Kerry campaign has filed a complaint with the Federal Election Commission accusing the Bush campaign and the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth of illegally coordinating the group's ads." (AP, 8/25/04)

"Bush Adviser Quits After Appearing in Swift Boat Ad" "A volunteer adviser has quit President Bush's re-election campaign after appearing in a veterans group's television commercial blasting Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry's involvement in the Vietnam-era antiwar movement. A Bush campaign statement said it did not know that retired Air Force Col. Ken Cordier had appeared in an ad by Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. The Kerry campaign has accused the group of illegally working with the Bush campaign." (CNN.com; 8/22/04)

AP: Florida Bush Headquarters Busted for Handing Out Swift Boat Material. "A volunteer for John Kerry said Friday he picked up a flier in Bush-Cheney headquarters in Gainesville, Fla., promoting Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, a group the Bush campaign has insisted for weeks it has no connection to. The Kerry campaign e-mailed the flier to news organizations Friday, declaring that the Bush-Cheney campaign was 'busted' for coordinating 'in their smear campaign against John Kerry.' The flier distributed at Alachua Co. Republican Party headquarters promotes a weekend rally sponsored by 'Swift Boat Vets for Truth' and other groups." (AP, 8/20/04)

New York Times: Bush Family, Bush Political Aide Have Close Ties to These Ads. "In a series of interviews and a review of documents show a web of connections to the Bush family, high- profile Texas political figures and President Bush's chief political aide, Karl Rove. Records show that the group received the bulk of its initial financing from two men with ties to the president and his family - one a longtime political associate of Mr. Rove's, the other a trustee of the foundation for Mr. Bush's father's presidential library. A Texas publicist who once helped prepare Mr. Bush's father for his debate when he was running for vice president provided them with strategic advice. And the group's television commercial was produced by the same team that made the devastating ad mocking Michael S. Dukakis in an oversized tank helmet when he and Mr. Bush's father faced off in the 1988 presidential election." (NYT, 8/20/04)

Dallas Morning News: "Veterans' Group Critical of Kerry Backed by Bush Supporter." Bob Perry, a major supporter of President Bush and the Republican Party, is the biggest financial backer of a veterans group seeking to discredit Democrat John Kerry's military service, according to federal records. Perry, a Houston homebuilder, gave $100,000 to Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, a group that has been critical of Kerry's anti-war activities after he returned from Vietnam. That accounted for two-thirds of the organization's receipts to date. (DMN, 7/23/04)

New Polls Find Swift Ads Backfiring on Bush; Majority of Americans Also Believe He Should Denounce Them

Voters Increasingly Believe Bush Behind Smears. "A plurality of Americans believe the Bush campaign is behind the television ads run by critics of John Kerry over his service in Vietnam and his antiwar statements after he returned to the United States. Belief in Bush campaign backing of the ads increased" as the campaign went on. (Annenberg National Election Survey, 8/27/04)

Another Poll Says Half of Americans Believe Bush Behind Smear Campaign on Kerry. According to a poll done by the Gallup Organization, half of all Americans believe Bush is behind the despicable smear campaign on John Kerry. "When asked if they think Bush is responsible for the ads, half of Americans say yes -- 21 percent say he is 'very' responsible, while another 29 percent say 'somewhat' responsible." (Gallup Organization press release, 8/27/04; http://www.gallup.com/content/default.aspx?ci=12823)

Bush on Wrong Side--Majority of Americans Disagree with Bush Decision Not to Condemn Smear Ad on Kerry. According to the same poll from Gallup , a majority of Americans disagree with President Bush's decision to condone the smear ad on Kerry. Most Americans believe Bush should have specifically condemned the ad: "Should Bush denounce the commercials? So far, the president has denounced 'all' ads by groups outside the campaigns, but has refused to single out the ad criticizing Kerry's service. A majority of Americans, 56 percent, say he should denounce the specific commercials." (Gallup, 8/27/04; http://www.gallup.com/content/default.aspx?ci=12823)

Bob Dole Correctly Predicted a Backlash if Bush Was Tied to These Ads: "If there is ever any tie between Bush and this group, I would say, yes, that probably would backfire." - Bob Dole (MSNBC, Scarborough Country, 8/25/04)

"Swift Boat Ads Push GOP Veteran Into Kerry Camp." "Ed Belfoure, who flew helicopters as a Marine in Vietnam, is a registered Republican. But he promises to cross party lines in November to vote for Democrat John Kerry for president. Belfoure, of Washington, Pa., said yesterday he cannot abide the 'despicable television ads' that donors to President Bush's campaign have aimed at Kerry. A group calling itself Swift Boat Veterans for Truth has attacked Kerry's service record in Vietnam. Kerry received Silver and Bronze stars and three Purple Hearts in the war -- honors that Swift Boat Veterans for Truth say he did not deserve." (Pittsburgh Post Gazette, 8/25/04)

West Virginia Mayor & Former Bush Backer Say Smear Campaign Backfiring. "Martinsburg (West Virginia) Mayor George Karos, a Democrat who voted for Bush in the last election and is undecided in the current race, said he thinks the attacks will backfire, ultimately helping Kerry. 'I don't believe in negative advertisements, but unfortunately we have to live with them,' Karos said." (Scripps Howard, 8/25/04)

Former Advisor to Nixon, Ford & Reagan Says "Below-the-Belt" Ads Backfire. Regarding the potential for these ads to backfire, former Nixon, Ford and Reagan advisor, David Gergen said, "While negative ads work in a short term, if they're seen as unfair, as below the belt, as smear tactics, they can backfire on the candidate in the long term." Gergen also stated that, "in the long term, it may backfire against the White House, especially if Americans decide that the ads are incorrect, they're lies, they're smears, and they're part of a dirty tricks campaign." (CNN, Inside Politics, 8/25/04; CBS Evening News, 8/23/04)

Even Ralph Nader Thinks the Bush Smear Ads Will Backfire. "(A)t Tulane University, Nader called Bush 'the worst president since Calvin Coolidge' and said recent efforts to smear Sen. John Kerry's war record will backfire by prompting questions about Bush's service in the National Guard." (Times Picayune, 8/28/04)

Vietnam Veteran Predicts These Ads Will Backfire. "At least some veterans have rejected the campaign, and even suggest it could backfire. Dan Foulk, who dropped napalm over the rivers patrolled by swift boats while an air force pilot in Vietnam (said) 'I don't think it's changing the election at all.' Standing beside the second world war memorial in Washington, DC, Mr Foulk, 72, said he and his veteran friends were more concerned with healthcare and 'their sons and daughters dying in Iraq' than a controversy over medals." (Financial Times, 8/25/04)

-- Senator Mitchell joins vets to support Kerry Mitchell decried the swift boat campaign and said he wants President Bush to call for an end to the ads. Mitchell said, "There's no way to describe it other than to say they are lies. It's the oldest political dirty trick in the world. If you engage in smear long enough, someone may believe it. If you repeat a lie often enough, someone may believe it. It is disgraceful, and I hope it will end." (News 8 WMTW, 8/28/04)

-- Loyal and angry, Mass. veterans group continue fight against Kerry's foes When attacks on John Kerry's war record began making front-page news across the country last week, Chris Gregory abandoned his family in the middle of a 10-day Wyoming vacation to come back to Massachusetts and join the fight. (AP 8/28/04)

-- When President Bush campaigns in Ohio today, he should condemn the television commercials criticizing John Kerry's military record so the nation can "get back to the real issues," former U.S. Sen. John Glenn said yesterday. Glenn, called the ads "a petty war of fear and smear" that Bush is allowing by not specifically condemning it. (Columbus Dispatch, 8/28/04)

-- Ex-crewmate leads veterans Kicking-off two days of pro- Kerry events across Pennsylvania on the eve of expected new anti- Kerry TV ads sponsored by the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth group, Del Sandusky said he personally witnessed the battle action for which Kerry received Silver and Bronze stars and two of his three Purple Hearts. (AP, 8/23/04)

-- Republicans and Democrats alike disgusted with 'un- American' smear. The Kerry campaign got some unexpected help from Wisconsin state Rep. Terry Musser, a Vietnam veteran and co- chairman of Wisconsin Veterans for Bush. Musser lambasted the Bush-Cheney campaign in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel over Republican attacks on Kerry's military record. " I think it's un- American to be attacking someone's service record. (Washington Post, 8/23/04)

Navy Officials Have Condemned Republican Attacks on the U.S. Navy's Medal Awarding Process

Former Navy Secretary & Republican Senator Condemned Critics of Navy's Medal Awarding Process-Warner "Stands By That Process" Former Secretary of the Navy and current Chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee dismissed critics and took issue with those questioning John Kerry's Silver Star. Warner stated on national television that he believes Kerry deserved the award and that it was time to move on to more pressing political issues: SENATOR JOHN WARNER (R-VA) 'I can speak to the process, that we did extraordinary, careful checking on that type of medal, a very high one, when it goes through the secretary. So I'd stand by the process that awarded him that medal, and I think we best acknowledge that his heroism did gain that recognition." CNN's WOLF BLITZER: 'So he deserved it?' WARNER: 'I feel that he deserved it.'" (CNN, Late Edition, 8/15/04)

Commander of U.S. Naval Forces in Vietnam Defended Navy's Silver Star Process. In 1996, when John Kerry faced a similarly nasty smear, the Commander of U.S. Naval Forces in Vietnam, Admiral Elmo Zumwalt, flew to Boston to come to Kerry's defense and lashed out at critics of the U.S. Navy's medal awarding process, "was such a terrible insult, such an absolutely outrageous misinterpretation of the facts, that I felt it was important to be here...a wartime commander has a lifetime responsibility to look out for the guys under him." (Kerry for Senate press conference, 10/27/04)

Former POW, John McCain Has Called These Ads "Dishonest & Dishonorable"

John McCain Says It's Dishonest & Dishonorable-Same Thing That Happened to Him in 2000. "Republican Sen. John McCain, a former prisoner of war in Vietnam, called an ad criticizing John Kerry's military service "dishonest and dishonorable" and urged the White House on Thursday to condemn it as well. 'It was the same kind of deal that was pulled on me,' McCain said in an interview with The Associated Press, referring to his bitter Republican primary fight with President Bush'." (AP, 8/5/04)

-- CBS News: "The Press Conference Was Set Up By The Same People Who Tried To Discredit John McCain's Reputation." "The (May, 2004 Swift Boat Veterans for Truth") press conference was set up by the same people who tried to discredit John McCain's reputation in Vietnam service when McCain faced George W. Bush for the Republican nomination in 2000. It's the same strategy used to go after Georgia Senator Max Cleland, who lost three limbs in Vietnam." (CBS Evening News, Pitts, 5/4/04)

-- Salon.Com: "Same Vicious Techniques They Used Against McCain" "Behind the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth are veteran corporate media consultant and Texas Republican activist Merrie Spaeth, who is listed as the group's media contact...In 2000, Spaeth participated in the most subterranean episode of the Republican primary contest when a shadowy group billed as 'Republicans for Clean Air' produced television ads falsely attacking the environmental record of John McCain in California, New York and Ohio. While the identity of those funding the supposedly 'independent' ads was carefully hidden, reporters soon learned that Republicans for Clean Air was simply Sam Wyly -- a big Bush contributor and beneficiary of Bush administration decisions in Texas -- and his brother, Charles, another Bush "Pioneer" contributor." (Salon.com, Conalson, 5/4/04)


TOPICS:
KEYWORDS: kerry; medals; rapidresponse; sbv; swiftboatvets
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1 posted on 08/31/2004 9:52:13 PM PDT by crushelits
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To: crushelits

They can answer all they want. The SwiftVets are going to continue to crush this phony.


2 posted on 08/31/2004 9:55:01 PM PDT by doug from upland (John Kerry cried and asked TaRAYaz to make the SwiftVets stop)
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To: doug from upland

Well, I read it again, for the fourth time; I still do not see where they FACT CHECKED the "Medals" ad.


3 posted on 08/31/2004 9:56:36 PM PDT by Howlin (John Kerry & John Edwards: Political Malpractice)
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To: crushelits; 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub; dakine; bkwells; chookter; Hacksaw434; thumperusn; Hostel; ...

Doesn't sound much like an apology to me...


4 posted on 08/31/2004 9:56:55 PM PDT by Libloather (What did Bergler stow - and when did he stow it?)
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To: crushelits

Thanks for the heads up Chaaaddd! Burn any books lately?


5 posted on 08/31/2004 9:57:42 PM PDT by claudiustg (Go Sharon! Go Bush!)
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To: crushelits

> Kerry's Rapid Response team respond by addressing the facts?

Umm, I though they were going to respond to the SBVFT
specific claims with some facts. Like, the 3 SStar
citations, the 2 BStar citations, Kerry's own
conflicting accounts of the PH events, and releasing
all the Kerry records in the naval archive.

All I see here is ad hominem and specious theorizing
about irrelevant imaginary connections between people.

Oh, I get it, no one is supposed to actually read
beyond the headline.


6 posted on 08/31/2004 9:58:16 PM PDT by Boundless
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To: crushelits

I can't get over how mind-numbingly stupid this Kerry campaign is. A week after Kerry claimed it was time to move on, they're still sending out press releases about the SVFT. Unbelievable.


7 posted on 08/31/2004 9:58:54 PM PDT by NYCVirago
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To: crushelits
"4th Prez Guy Tied to Anti-Kerry Ads" "A fourth Bush campaign official has been linked to a veterans group hammering Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry's Vietnam War heroism. GOP convention Chairman David Norcross practices law in the same D.C. firm, Blank Rome, as William Schachte, a retired Navy admiral who says Kerry did not deserve one of his Purple Heart medals, Time magazine reported yesterday. Schachte is aligned with the anti- Kerry group Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, which has dominated the campaign in recent weeks with accusations that the former Swift boat skipper is lying about how he got his war medals." (NY Daily News, 8/30/04)

I'm not even going to bother with the rest of this tripe, but when I first saw this story yesterday "linking" Bush to the Swifties, I didn't know whether to laugh or feel sorry for the Dems. Trying to pass this off as a "connection" not only is desperate, but also shows just how ridiculous the campaign finance reform laws are if having a law firm partner who speaks out against a candidate is illegal.

8 posted on 08/31/2004 10:00:31 PM PDT by mwp99
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To: Howlin

They are toast. I see their lips moving and all I hear is blah blah blah blah blah.


9 posted on 08/31/2004 10:00:50 PM PDT by doug from upland (John Kerry cried and asked TaRAYaz to make the SwiftVets stop)
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To: Boundless

Kerry hasn't been "rapid" in arriving at his fund-raisers or in signing that Form 180.


10 posted on 08/31/2004 10:02:52 PM PDT by Carolinamom
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To: crushelits

Is this the product of the NEW Kerry staff or the OLD Kerry staff. I can't tell the difference. They obviously figure that the trick is MORE of what didn't work first time around. SHEEEESH.


11 posted on 08/31/2004 10:03:46 PM PDT by Mach9
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To: crushelits
US Newswire is a fake website. It's a real site, but it has nothing to do with actual news. Instead, it runs whatever unmitigated twaddle its paid customers choose to spit out.

In the process of scrolling through to post a response, I saw the name Joe Conason fly by. Any allegedly factual statement that includes the name of that political wh*re (excuse me, esteemed journalist) is a crock of cr*p. I don't mean to be too harsh here....

Congressman Billybob

Latest column, "The Radio Talk Show Amendment, Or: Why John Kerry is Now Toast"

If you haven't already joined the anti-CFR effort, please click here.

12 posted on 08/31/2004 10:05:05 PM PDT by Congressman Billybob (www.ArmorforCongress.com Visit. Join. Help. Please.)
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To: crushelits
Absolutely pathetic attempt to defuse the situation. This is laughable.

"Perry, a Houston homebuilder, gave $100,000 to Swift Boat Veterans for Truth." What about the $13 million given by Fonda and the other $13 million (I think) given by Soros to MoveOn.org? How can they carp about a mere $100k donation? What really steams them is the totally ineffectual use of their $65 million compared to the devastating effects from the under $1 million to SBVT.

13 posted on 08/31/2004 10:06:54 PM PDT by ProtectOurFreedom
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To: crushelits
Kerry's disrespect in 1971 to USA Symbols Video

Windows Media .......... Real Player .......... Quick Time .......... AOL

Ramsey Clark to Join Panel for Saddam’s Defense
arabnews press release 25 August 2004

NOTE :
Ramsey Clark is pictured below with Kerry and
Vietnam phony vet Al Hubbard
Who was head of the
Vietnam Veterans Against the War movement.



Al Hubbard Sgt., 22 Troop Carrier Squadron Aug. ’65-June ’66
- Al Hubbard, proven fraud who never set foot in Viet Nam.
The only Vietnamese he ever met was
when he was collaborating with the North Vietnamese in Paris
on the American Communist Party's nickel.

John Kerry's explanation:
"He (Hubbard) simply exaggarated his particular position.
But nobody knew it at the time. And those things happen."

Free online version of
Kerry's "The New Soldier"
You can read it without downloading pdf files!
CLICK HERE


PHOTO GALLERY ONLY
CLICK HERE


The New Soldier, (46 pages)
By John Kerry
and Vietnam Veterans
Against the War
FREE E-BOOK
IN PDF FORMAT
WITH PHOTOS



Kerry hopes everyone
in the USA gets this book!

NEW:
“Without question,
we were held captive longer
because of the anti-war people,
the Kerrys, the Fondas and Haydens,
the names we knew over there -
they encouraged the enemy to hang on.”
Excerpt from “Stolen Honor” website
- Leo Thorsness
Former Vietnam POW
CLICK HERE


Jane Fonda tells the student audience at the Michigan State University in 1969;
"I would think that if you understood what communism was, you would hope,
you would pray on your knees, that we would someday become communist."

Joe Moore, Can Tho Airfield 550th Signal Company


Copy and paste the links to everyone you know.

Kerry's disrespect in 1971
to USA Symbols Video

Windows Media
http://swift3.he.net/~swift3/medals.wmv

Real Player
http://swift3.he.net/~swift3/medals.rm

Quick Time
http://swift3.he.net/~swift3/medals.mov

AOL
http://swift3.he.net/~swift3/medals.mpg

Send this url for the online "The New Soldier" version

http://ejsmithweb.com/fr/newsoldier/

Send this url for the online photo gallery of "The New Soldier"

http://freekerrybook.com/photo0

Send this url for the Stolen Honor website

http://www.stolenhonor.com/


Print this out (46 pages) and disribute it,
especially to the liberals you know.

http://freekerrybook.com/

14 posted on 08/31/2004 10:07:59 PM PDT by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub (Hippie Dippie Hanoi Kerry and Hippie Dippie Hanoi Jane sitting in a tree! F-R-E-N-C-H-I-N-G)
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To: doug from upland

I see Hillary Clinton has infiltrated the Kerry campaign. It couldn't be anything else unless they are THAT stupid. ROFLOL!


15 posted on 08/31/2004 10:09:12 PM PDT by kcvl
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To: doug from upland

The Swifties have 17 more ads in the can, ready to deploy on a day's notice as needed.


16 posted on 08/31/2004 10:11:21 PM PDT by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: doug from upland
I'm John Kerry and I approve of this ad!

"My campaign motto!"



17 posted on 08/31/2004 10:11:55 PM PDT by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub (Hippie Dippie Hanoi Kerry and Hippie Dippie Hanoi Jane sitting in a tree! F-R-E-N-C-H-I-N-G)
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To: doug from upland; potlatch; PhilDragoo; Happy2BMe; MeekOneGOP; Smartass; onyx; Grampa Dave; ...
Another Soreass non-response response. - Great coffeebreak talk for tomorrow at work.

Ho hum reams of dry meaningless text -

How exciting!

Punt!
18 posted on 08/31/2004 10:15:44 PM PDT by devolve ( -- Kerry & POW`s families - http://pro.lookingat.us/POW.html --)
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To: Travis McGee

Imagine if you are John Kerry. Your senior advisors told you there was nothing to worry about and that your pals in the press would bury the Swiftees. I think John Kerry could have Edwards sue them for malpractice. What is even more staggering is that Kerry seems to have been blindsided by these guys. He thought he would just waltz through the campaign.


19 posted on 08/31/2004 10:22:29 PM PDT by doug from upland (John Kerry cried and asked TaRAYaz to make the SwiftVets stop)
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To: crushelits

Of course I don't work for the media, so I'm unqualified to say this, but making a carefully structured responsed to charges made from four weeks to thirty years ago hardly seems rapid.

Rabid maybe.


20 posted on 08/31/2004 10:24:33 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (US socialist liberalism would be dead without the help of politicians who claim to be conservatives)
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