Is Satan Bound Today?

BibleBB ^ | Mike Vlach

[xzins]

An Analysis of the Amillennial Interpretation of Revelation 20:1-3.

1 And I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
3 and threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he should not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time (Revelation 20:1-3).

One distinctive of amillennial theology is the belief that Satan is bound during this present age. This belief stems from an interpretation that sees the binding of Satan described in Revelation 20:1-3 as being fulfilled today. The purpose of this work is examine the amillennial view of Revelation 20:1-3 and address the question, "Is Satan bound today?" In doing this, our evaluation will include the following: 1) a brief definition of amillennialism; 2) a look at the amillennial approach to interpreting Revelation; 3) an explanation and analysis of the amillennial view of Revelation 20:1-3; and 4) some concluding thoughts.

DEFINITION OF AMILLENNIALISM

Amillennialism is the view that there will be no future reign of Christ on the earth for a thousand years.¹ Instead, the thousand year reign of Christ mentioned six times in Revelation 20 is being fulfilled during the present age. According to amillennialists, the "thousand years" is not a literal thousand years but is figurative for "a very long period of indeterminate length." ² Thus the millennium of Revelation 20:1-6 describes the conditions of the present age between the two comings of Christ. During this period Satan is bound (Rev. 20:1-3) and Christ's Kingdom is being fulfilled (Rev. 20:4-6).³

THE AMILLENNIAL APPROACH TO INTERPRETING REVELATION

Before looking specifically at how amillennialists interpret Revelation 20:1-3, it is important to understand how they approach the Book of Revelation. Amillennialists base their interpretation of the Book of Revelation on a system of interpretation known as progressive parallelism. This interpretive system does not view the events of Revelation from a chronological or sequential perspective but, instead, sees the book as describing the church age from several parallel perspectives that run concurrently. ⁴ Anthony Hoekema, an amillennialist, describes progressive parallelism in the following manner:

According to this view, the book of Revelation consists of seven sections which run parallel to each other, each of which depicts the church and the world from the time of Christ's first coming to the time of his second.⁵

Following the work of William Hendriksen,⁶ Hoekema believes there are seven sections of Revelation that describe the present age. These seven sections give a portrait of conditions on heaven and earth during this period between the two comings of Christ. These seven sections which run parallel to each other are chapters 1-3, 4-7, 8-11, 12-14, 15-16, 17-19 and 20-22. What is significant for our purposes is that amillennialists see Revelation 20:1 as taking the reader back to the beginning of the present age. As Hoekema states, "Revelation 20:1 takes us back once again to the beginning of the New Testament era."⁷

Amillennialists, thus, do not see a chronological connection between the events of Revelation 19:11-21 that describe the second coming of Christ, and the millennial reign discussed in Revelation 20:1-6. As Hendriksen says, "Rev. 19:19ff. carried us to the very end of history, to the day of final judgment. With Rev. 20 we return to the beginning of our present dispensation."⁸ The amillennial view sees chapter nineteen as taking the reader up to the second coming, but the beginning of chapter twenty takes him back once again to the beginning of the present age. In other words, the events of Revelation 20:1-6 do not follow the events of Revelation 19:11-21.

THE AMILLENNIAL VIEW OF REVELATION 20:1-3

With the principle of progressive parallelism as his base, the amillennialist holds that the binding of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3 took place at Christ's first coming.⁹ This binding ushered in the millennial kingdom. As William Cox says,

Having bound Satan, our Lord ushered in the millennial kingdom of Revelation 20. This millennium commenced at the first advent and will end at the second coming, being replaced by the eternal state.¹⁰

Thus the present age is the millennium and one characteristic of this millennial period is that Satan is now bound. This binding of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3, according to the amillennialist, finds support in the Gospels, particularly Jesus' binding of the strong man in Matthew 12:29. As Hoekema states,

Is there any indication in the New Testament that Satan was bound at the time of the first coming of Christ? Indeed there is. When the Pharisees accused Jesus of casting out demons by the power of Satan, Jesus replied, "How can one enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man?" (Mt. 12:29). ¹¹

Hoekema also points out that the word used by Matthew (delta epsilon omega) to describe the binding of the strong man is the same word used in Revelation 20 to describe the binding of Satan.¹² In addition to Matthew 12:29, amillennialists believe they have confirming exegetical support from Luke 10:17-18 and John 12:31-32. In Luke 10, when the seventy disciples returned from their mission they said to Jesus, "'Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.'" And He said to them, 'I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning'" (Luke 10:17-18). According to Hoekema, "Jesus saw in the works his disciples were doing an indication that Satan's kingdom had just been dealt a crushing blow-that, in fact, a certain binding of Satan, a certain restriction of his power, had just taken place."¹³

John 12:31-32, another supporting text used by amillennialists states: "Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world shall be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." Hoekema points out that the verb translated "cast out" (epsilon kappa beta alpha lambda lambda omega) is derived from the same root as the word used in Revelation 20:3 when it says an angel "threw [ballo] him into the abyss." ¹⁴

What is the significance of this binding of Satan according the amillennial position? This binding has special reference to Satan's ability to deceive the nations during the present age. Because Satan is now bound, he is no longer able to deceive the nations as he did before the first coming of Christ. Before Christ's first coming, all the nations of the world, except Israel, were under the deception of Satan. Except for the occasional person, family or city that came into contact with God's people or His special revelation, Gentiles, as a whole, were shut out from salvation.¹⁵ With the coming of Christ, however, Jesus bound Satan, and in so doing, removed his ability to deceive the nations. This binding, though, did not mean a total removal of Satan's activity, for Satan is still active and able to do harm. As Cox says, "Satan now lives on probation until the second coming."¹⁶ But while he is bound, Satan is no longer able to prevent the spread of the Gospel nor is he able to destroy the Church. Also, according to amillennialists, the "abyss" to which Satan is assigned is not a place of final punishment but a figurative description of the way Satan's activities are being curbed during this age.¹⁷

Hoekema summarizes the amillennial view of Revelation 20:1-3 by saying,

"We conclude, then, that the binding of Satan during the Gospel age means that, first, he cannot prevent the spread of the gospel, and second, he cannot gather all the enemies of Christ together to attack the church."¹⁸

AN ANALYSIS OF THE AMILLENNIAL INTERPRETATION OF REVELATION 20:1-3

Though amillennial scholars have clearly and logically laid out their case for the amillennial view of Revelation 20:1-3, there are serious hermeneutical, exegetical and theological difficulties with their interpretation of this text.

1) The approach to interpreting Revelation known as "progressive parallelism is highly suspect The first difficulty to be examined is hermeneutical and deals with the amillennial approach to interpreting the Book of Revelation. In order for the amillennial interpretation of Revelation 20:1-3 to be correct, the interpretive approach to Revelation known as "progressive parallelism" must also be accurate. Yet this approach which sees seven sections of Revelation running parallel to each other chronologically is largely unproven and appears arbitrary. As Hoekema admits, the approach of progressive parallelism, "is not without its difficulties."¹⁹

The claim that Revelation 20:1 "takes us back once again to the beginning of the New Testament era,"²⁰ does not seem warranted from the text. There certainly are no indicators within the text that the events of Revelation 20:1 take the reader back to the beginning of the present age. Nor are there textual indicators that the events of Revelation 20 should be separated chronologically from the events of Revelation 19:11-21. In fact, the opposite is the case. The events of Revelation 20 seem to follow naturally the events described in Revelation 19:11-21. If one did not have a theological presupposition that the millennium must be fulfilled in the present age, what indicators within the text would indicate that 20:1 takes the reader back to the beginning of the church era? A normal reading indicates that Christ appears from heaven (19:11-19), He destroys his enemies including the beast and the false prophet (19:20-21) and then He deals with Satan by binding him and casting him into the abyss (20:1-3). As Ladd says, "There is absolutely no hint of any recapitulation in chapter 20."²¹

That John uses the formula "and I saw" (kappa alpha iota  epsilon iota delta omicron nu) at the beginning of Revelation 20:1 also gives reason to believe that what he is describing is taking place in a chronological manner.²² Within Revelation 19-22, this expression is used eight times (19:11, 17, 19; 20:1, 4, 11, 12; 21:1). When John uses "and I saw," he seems to be describing events in that are happening in a chronological progression. Commenting on these eight uses of "and I saw" in this section, Thomas states,

The case favoring chronological sequence in the fulfillment of these scenes is very strong. Progression from Christ's return to the invitation to the birds of prey and from that invitation to the defeat of the beast is obvious. So is the progression from the binding of Satan to the Millennium and final defeat of Satan and from the final defeat to the new heaven and new earth with all this entails. The interpretation allowing for chronological arrangement of these eight scenes is one-sidedly strong. ²³

A natural reading of the text indicates that the events of Revelation 20 follow the events of Revelation 19:11-21. It is also significant that Hoekema, himself, admits that a chronological reading of Revelation would naturally lead one to the conclusion that the millennium follows the second coming when he says, "If, then, one thinks of Revelation 20 as describing what follows chronologically after what is described in chapter 19, one would indeed conclude that the millennium of Revelation 20:1-6 will come after the return of Christ.²⁴

Herman Hoyt, when commenting on this statement by Hoekema, rightly stated, "This appears to be a fatal admission."²⁵ And it is. Hoekema admits that a normal reading of Revelation 19 and 20 would not lead one to the amillennial position. In a sense, the amillennialist is asking the reader to disregard the plain meaning of the text for an assumption that has no exegetical warrant. As Hoyt says,

To the average person the effort to move the millennium to a place before the Second Coming of Christ is demanding the human mind to accede to something that does not appear on the face of the text. But even more than that, the effort to make seven divisions cover the same period of time (between the first and second comings) will meet with all sorts of confusion to establish its validity. At best this is a shaky foundation upon which to establish a firm doctrine of the millennium. ²⁶

The hermeneutical foundation of amillennialism is, indeed, a shaky one. The seriousness of this must not be underestimated. For if the amillennialist is wrong on his approach to interpreting the Book of Revelation, his attempt at placing Satan's binding during the present age has suffered a major if not fatal blow.

2) The amillennial view does not adequately do justice to the language of Revelation 20:1-3 According to the amillennial view, Satan is unable to deceive the nations as he did before the first coming of Christ, but he is still active and able to do harm in this age. His activities, then, have not ceased but are limited.²⁷ This, however, does not do justice to what is described in Revelation 20:1-3. According to the text, Satan is "bound" with a "great chain" (vv.1-2) and thrown into the "abyss" that is "shut" and "sealed" for a thousand years (v. 3). This abyss acts as a "prison" (v. 7) until the thousand years are completed. The acts of binding, throwing, shutting and sealing indicate that Satan's activities are completely finished. As Mounce states:

The elaborate measures taken to insure his [Satan's] custody are most easily understood as implying the complete cessation of his influence on earth (rather than a curbing of his activities)."²⁸

Berkouwer, who himself is an amillennialist, admits that the standard amillennial explanation of this text does not do justice to what is described:

Those who interpret the millennium as already realized in the history of the church try to locate this binding in history. Naturally, such an effort is forced to relativize the dimensions of this binding, for it is impossible to find evidence for a radical elimination of Satan's power in that "realized millennium." . . . The necessary relativizing of John's description of Satan's bondage (remember that Revelation 20 speaks of a shut and sealed pit) is then explained by the claim that, although Satan is said to deceive the nations no more (vs. 3), this does not exclude satanic activity in Christendom or individual persons. I think it is pertinent to ask whether this sort of interpretation really does justice to the radical proportions of the binding of Satan-that he will not be freed from imprisonment for a thousand years. ²⁹

The binding of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3 is set forth in strong terms that tell of the complete cessation of his activities. The amillennial view that Satan's binding is just a restriction or a "probation," as Cox has stated,³⁰ does not hold up under exegetical scrutiny.

3) The amillennial view conflicts with the New Testament's depiction of Satan's activities in the present age The view that Satan is bound during this age contradicts multiple New Testament passages which show that Satan is presently active and involved in deception. He is "the god of this world [who] has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ" (2 Corinthians 4:4). He is our adversary who "prowls about like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour" (1 Peter 5:8). In the church age he was able to fill the heart of Ananias (Acts 5:3) and "thwart" the work of God's ministers (1 Thess. 2:18). He is one for whom we must protect ourselves from by putting on the whole armor of God (Ephesians 6:10-19). Satan's influence in this age is so great that John declared "the whole world lies in the power of the evil one" (1 John 5:19). These passages do not depict a being who has been bound and shut up in a pit. As Grudem has rightly commented, "the theme of Satan's continual activity on earth throughout the church age, makes it extremely difficult to think that Satan has been thrown into the bottomless pit."³¹

What then of the amillennial argument that Matthew 12:29 teaches that Jesus bound Satan at His first coming? The answer is that this verse does not teach that Satan was bound at that time. What Jesus stated in Matthew 12:29 is that in order for kingdom conditions to exist on the earth, Satan must first be bound. He did not say that Satan was bound yet. As Toussaint says:

By this statement He [Jesus] previews John the Apostle's discussion in Revelation 20. Jesus does not say He has bound Satan or is even in the process of doing so. He simply sets the principle before the Pharisees. His works testify to His ability to bind Satan, and therefore they attest His power to establish the kingdom.³²

Jesus' casting out of demons (Matt. 12:22-29) was evidence that He was the Messiah of Israel who could bring in the kingdom. His mastery over demons showed that He had the authority to bind Satan. But as the multiple New Testament texts have already affirmed, this binding did not take place at Christ's first coming. It will, though, at His second. What Jesus presented as principle in Matthew 12:29 will come to fulfillment in Revelation 20:1-3.

Luke 10:17-18 and John 12:31-32 certainly tell of Christ's victory over Satan but these passages do not teach that Satan is bound during this age. No Christian denies that the work of Christ, especially his death on the cross, brought a crushing defeat to Satan, but the final outworking of that defeat awaits the second coming. That is why Paul could tell the believers at Rome that "the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet" (Romans 16:20).

For the one contemplating the validity of amillennialism the question must be asked, Does the binding of Satan described in Revelation 20:1-3 accurately describe Satan's condition today? An analysis of multiple scriptural texts along with the present world situation strongly indicates that the answer is No.

4) Satan's deceiving activities continue throughout most of the Book of Revelation According to amillennialists, Satan was bound at the beginning of the Church age and he no longer has the ability to deceive the nations during the present age. But within the main sections of Revelation itself, Satan is pictured as having an ongoing deceptive influence on the nations. If Satan is bound during this age and Revelation describes conditions during this present age, we should expect to see a cessation of his deceptive activities throughout the book. But the opposite is the case. Satan's deception is very strong throughout Revelation. Revelation 12:9, for instance, states that "Satan. . . deceives the whole world." This verse presents Satan as a present deceiver of the world, not one who is bound.³³

Satan's deception is also evident in the authority he gives to the first beast (Rev. 13:2) and the second beast who "deceives those who dwell on the earth" (Rev. 13:14). Satan is certainly the energizer of political Babylon of whom it is said, "all the nations were deceived by your sorcery" (Revelation 18:23).

Satan's ability to deceive the nations throughout the Book of Revelation shows that he was not bound at the beginning of the present age. Grudem's note on the mentioned passages is well taken, "it seems more appropriate to say that Satan is now still deceiving the nations, but at the beginning of the millennium this deceptive influence will be removed."³⁴

CONCLUSION

The amillennial view of Revelation 20:1-3 that Satan is bound during this age is not convincing and fails in several ways. Hermeneutically it fails in that its approach to interpreting the Book of Revelation is based on the flawed system of progressive parallelism. This system forces unnatural breaks in the text that a normal reading of Revelation does not allow. This is especially true with the awkward break between the millennial events of Revelation 20 and the account of the second coming in Revelation 19:11-21. Exegetically, the amillennial view of Revelation 20:1-3 does not do justice to the language of the text. The binding described in this passage clearly depicts a complete cessation of Satan's activities-not just a limitation as amillennialists believe. Theologically, the view that Satan is bound today simply does not fit with the multiple New Testament texts that teach otherwise. Nor can the amillennial view be reconciled with the passages within Revelation itself that show Satan as carrying on deceptive activity. To answer the question posed in the title of this work, "Is Satan bound today?" The answer from the biblical evidence is clearly, No.

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Footnotes

1. The prefix "a-" means "no." Amillennialism, therefore, means "no millennium."

2. Anthony Hoekema, "Amillennialism," The Meaning of the Millennium: Four Views, Robert G. Clouse, ed. (Downers Grove: Inter Varsity, 1977), p. 161.

3. Among amillennial lists there are differences of opinion as to exactly what Christ's millennial reign specifically is. Augustine, Allis and Berkhof believed the millennial reign of Christ refers to the Church on earth. On the other hand, Warfield taught that Christ's kingdom involves deceased saints who are reigning with Christ from heaven.

4. This approach to Revelation can be traced to the African Donatist, Tyconius, a late fourth-century interpreter. Millennium based on a recapitulation method of interpretation. Using this principle Tyconius saw Revelation as containing several different visions that repeated basic themes throughout the book. Tyconius also interpreted the thousand years of Revelation 20:1-6 in nonliteral terms and understood the millennial period as referring to the present age. This recapitulation method was adopted by Augustine and has carried on through many Roman Catholic and Protestant interpreters. See Alan Johnson, "Reve lation,"Expositor's Bible Commentary, Frank E. Gaebelein, ed. (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1981), v. 12, pp. 578-79.

5. Hoekena, pp. 156-57.

6. William Hendriksen, More Than Conquerors (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1940).

7. Hoekema, p. 160.

8. Hendriksen, p. 221.

9. Hendriksen defines what the amillennialist means by "first coming." "When we say 'the first coming' we have reference to all the events associated with it, from the incarnation to the coronation. We may say, therefore, that the binding of satan [sic], according to all these passages, begins with that first coming" Hendriksen, p.226.

10. William E. Cos, Amillennialism Today (Phillipsburg: Presbyterian and Reformed, 1966), p. 58.

11. Hoekema, p. 162.

12. Hoekema, pp. 162-63.

13. Hoekema, p. 163.

14. Hoekema, pp. 163-64.

15. Hoekema, p. 161.

16. Cox, p. 57.

17. Hoekema, p. 161.

18. Hoekema, p. 162.

19. Hoekema, p. 156.

20. Hoekema, p. 160.

21. George Eldon Ladd, "An Historical Premillennial Response," The Meaning of the Millennium: Four Views, p. 190.

22. Harold W. Hoehner says, "Though these words are not as forceful a chronological order as 'after these things I saw' ( (meta tauta eidon; 4:1; 7:9; 15:5; 18:1) or 'after these things I heard' ( meta tauta ekousa, 19:1), they do show chronological progression." Harold W. Hoehner, "Evidence from Revelation 20," A case For Premillennialism: A New Consensus, Donald K. Campbell and Jeffrey L. Townsend, eds. (Chicago: Moody Press, 1992), pp. 247-48.

23. Robert. L. Thomas, Revelation 8-22: An Exegetical Commentary (Chicago: Moody, 1995), pp. 247-48.

24. Hoekema, p. 159.

25. Herman A. Hoyt, "A Dispensational Premillennial Response," The Meaning of the Millennium: Four Views, p. 193.

26. Hoyt, p. 194.

27. As Cox says, "Satan's binding refers (in figurative language) to the limiting of his power." Cox, p. 59.

28. Robert H. Mounce, The Book of Revelation (Grand Rapids: Eerchnans, 1977), p. 353. Grudem also adds, "More than a mere binding or restriction of activity is in view here. The imagery of throwing Satan into a pit and shutting it and sealing it over him gives a picture of total removal from influence on the earth." Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology

29. G.C.Berkouwer, The Return of Christ, Studies in Dogmatics (Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans, 1972), p. 305.

30. Cox, p. 57.

31. Grudem, p. 1118.

32. Stanley D. Toussaint, Behold the King: A Study of Matthew (Portland: Multnomah, 1981), p. 305.

33. The argument that the casting down of Satan in Revelation 12:9 is the same event as the binding of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3 breaks down for two reasons. First, in Revelation 12:9 Satan was thrown from heaven to the earth. But in Revelation 20:1-3 he is taken from the earth to the abyss. Second, in Revelation 12:9 Satan's activities, including his deception of the nations, continue, while in Revelation 20:1-3 his activities are completely stopped as he is shut up and sealed in the abyss.

34. Grudem, p. 1118.

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[nobdysfool]

I think the problem is that everyone here is trying to play "gotcha." They want to trap you into saying something horrible.

Very true, and there's always someone waiting to pounce on the supposed "offender" and pass judgement on whether they are even born-again, deceived, or whatever. I confess that I have played that game a little, and have since grown tired of the one-upmanship and obvious contentiousness of some of the arguments. Seems like many are talking "past" each other, not "to" each other, and there are some who justify this approach by saying "it's for the benefit of the lurkers". Sounds suspiciously like "it's for the children", the favorite mantra of the Liberal Left as they invent another way to rob us of a bit of freedom. In any event, it's not a truly charitable attitude, now is it?

One thing is certain: When Jesus returns, some will find out they were wrong, and some will find out they were right. I believe God's Grace is sufficient to cover even that. After all, it's God's agenda, not ours, and He's not waiting to see who come up with the right interpretation. He's going to accomplish His Purpose and Plan, no matter whether it's Amil, Premil, Calvinist, Arminian, Methodist, Reformed, Baptist, Pentecostal, or none of the above. Sometimes I think we are all blind men trying to describe what an elephant looks like, by feel alone. Even the best of us are still quite blind in some part.

[nobdysfool]

Are you sure it won't cause indigestion?

Only if you don't chew it before you swallow it....

[DouglasKC]

When Jesus returns, some will find out they were wrong, and some will find out they were right. I believe God's Grace is sufficient to cover even that. After all, it's God's agenda, not ours, and He's not waiting to see who come up with the right interpretation. He's going to accomplish His Purpose and Plan, no matter whether it's Amil, Premil, Calvinist, Arminian, Methodist, Reformed, Baptist, Pentecostal, or none of the above.

Amen to that.... :-)

[RnMomof7]

You wrote ;


2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

I have faith in the promise of his coming. Satan fears it:

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,



I ask where does it say anything about what Satan believes here?

[RnMomof7]

I believe in elect wai because that is what the bible teaches...It teaches He chose you before the foundation of the earth..You love him because He loved you first..

The faith that you express in Him is a gift from him otherwise you save your self..

Jesus taught it

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Peter believed it

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Paul believed it

Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

Wai your salvation is no accident God Chose you ..

[RnMomof7]

And wai ..if that does not humble you nothing will

[Seven_0]

"I don't believe the argument process of going back and forth and back and forth has worked at all around here. I see no reason to continue using a method that doesn't work."

Don't be so sure that this method doesn't work, there are people out here that you don't know.
I like your position on manners.

[Seven_0]

"It's just that there are things worth fighting over, and there are things that are not worth fighting over. Alas, too much of Christianity has failed to realize this."

Christianity can't even agree on what thing are worth fighting over. My rule is , if it is important to one side, then the opposition should take note. once you say that something is not important, you lose the arguement already. The decision you must make is whether to play offence or defence. either way Satan will engage, usually in so called trivial matters. Remembere even a small error can allow a man to score, who never should have come to bat. We must earnestly contend for the faith.

[nickcarraway]

Is it that God changed his views of time...or that our understaning of time is insufficient?

[Matchett-PI]

"In the future if you wish to attack and demonize me please be courteous enough to link to my response and not just the charge."

Why are you so defensive? My link took people to the whole thread wherein you made all of your responses to Ethan. Anyone who is interested will read the whole thread, and in the process, read your replies.

You act as if I didn't tell everyone that you are entitled to believe in a different god than the One most of us are talking about.

You deny that the Holy Spirit is God. Most of us don't.

Therefore, it is not attacking or demonizing you to say that you do believe in a different god than the One most of us are talking about here.

[Starwind]

An hypothesis for fitting John 5:24-29 to Revelation 20.

For the record, this hypothesis is based on my literal interpretation of Rev 20 as well as John 5, all as noted throughout this thread. (Note: all cites are NASB)

In John 5:28-29, perhaps too much was made of the phrases 'an hour is coming and now is' and 'resurrection' (implying spiritual resurrections), and too little of 'coming forth' and 'of life vs of judgment'?

Jesus used the phrase 'an hour is coming and now is' in John 4:23 as well as John 5:25.

Jesus (in John 4:21) uses the phrase 'an hour is coming' in specific reference to when the Samarian woman at the well would no longer worship neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem, possibly alluding to when the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD would end Jewish worship as she knew it:

John 4:21 Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.

Jesus (in John 4:23) goes on to describe the central tenet of the church age (begun now with Jesus himself) that true worship will be in spirit (having resulted from salvation in Christ), and salavtion and its resulting true worship occurs on an individual basis, and this is ongoing to the end of the age - from an hour now through to an hour coming:

John 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.

Jesus (in John 5:25) reuses "an hour is coming and now is" in John 5:25, when the spiritually dead will listen to Him (or the gospel), believe, and live eternally, and that this likewise begins now with Jesus and goes on to the end of the age - from an hour now through to an hour coming.

John 5:25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

(Yes, I'm quite aware I have interpreted transposing an hour 'now is' and' is coming' to fit this explanation, and arguably that would be an alteration of scripture. I'm not trying to slip this by anyone, but disclosing, attempting to find the most consistent interpretation of all scripture, including 1Thes 4:14-17 and all of Rev 20. So, indulge me momentarily).

Jesus (in John 5:28-29) then reuses "an hour is coming" again in reference to a specific future time when all will be judged according to their deeds. This is the white throne judgment.

John 5:28-29 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

We will all come forth to judgment at the white throne in a single hour, but we don't all come forth in resurrection in a single hour. The resurrection of life [zwhV <2222>] and the resurrection of judgement [krisewV <2920>] are two different resurrections:

2222 zoe dzo-ay' from 2198; life (literally or figuratively):--life(-time). Compare 5590.

2920 krisis kree'-sis decision (subjectively or objectively, for or against); by extension, a tribunal; by implication, justice (especially, divine law):--accusation, condemnation, damnation, judgment.

All the saved who were in tombs (and alive) will come forth in a single hour in physical resurrection as well, but at the Rapture, before the white throne judgement. All the unsaved who remain in tombs will come forth in a single hour in physcial resurrection, but at the white throne.

And as they are two different resurrections, and the saved who have eternal life are resurrected prior to the white throne judgment (either at the rapture or the 1st resurrection); in this context 'an hour is coming' can not mean a single hour for two events but rather a single hour each for separate events; e.g. we all have our day in court, but each on separate days. And this contextual interpretation is further consistent with a physical thousand year millenium separating the resurrection of the saved to eternal life from the resurrection of the unsaved to eternal condemnation.

All will be judged according to their deeds (the saved and unsaved) and this judgement occurs in a single hour. All books are opened; the book of life as well as the books (of works or deeds). But the saved are in the book of life and the judgment of their good deeds results in their commensurate reward in heaven, whereas the unsaved are not in the book of life and the judgment of their deeds can not save them but only condemn them - their just reward as well for rejecting Christ.

Our reward in heaven likely varies by individual, based on our deeds (presumably as judged by Jesus and presumably at the white throne judgment):

Luke 6:35 "But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.

1 Corinthians 3:8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor.

Colossians 3:23-25 Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve. For he who does wrong will receive the consequences of the wrong which he has done, and that without partiality.

2 John 1:8 Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward.

Revelation 22:12 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.

So, I've tried to show the correspondence visually, but as implied above (and in light of my literal interpretation of Rev 20), I don't see much correspondence. Maybe someone can suggest improvements?

 

Sequence commentary	John chapter 5	Revelation chapter 20
Thousand years begin		2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.
Judges on thrones and Tribulation Saints reign		4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
unsaved physcially dead stay dead		5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed.
bodily resurrection of those saved after the Rapture		This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
people who believe unto eternal life should have been raptured prior to 1000 years - 1 Thes 4:14-17	24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Ongoing era of salavation when gospel is 'heard' 'spiritually dead' born anew into spiritual life. [the only dead in Rev 20 who 'hear' and live are the dead who stand (live) live at the white throne]	25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
	26 "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
Thousand years ends		7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
white throne judgment	27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.	11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
Singular event - physically dead in tombs	28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth;	12a And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life;
resurrection to life implies saved and raptured	29a those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life,
'dead' are judged on works	29b those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.	12b and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
		13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
		14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
		15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

Any and all, please do point out errors or omissions, or make other suggestions. I believe there a single consistent truth for all of God's word.

Thank you. Ok, so now let the "gotcha's begin.

[RnMomof7]

So seeing that xzins did not want to answer How do you know that the thousand years in Rev 20 is not a day..as a thousand years is like a day to God..or 1000,000 days ..How do you select this chapter out of a book filled woith symbolism and choose to make it literal truth?

[Seven_0]

"And as they are two different resurrections, and the saved who have eternal life are resurrected prior to the white throne judgment (either at the rapture or the 1st resurrection);"

Is the rapture counted as a Resurrection? If so how can it precede the first resurrection?

[Matchett-PI]

It's amazing to see xzins actually contradict you and admit that he doesn't have to try to fool you, or try to not fool you, but that fooling people just comes naturally to him.

But to also smile and claim that it isn't anything personal --- that it's just polite business --- is a bit sociopathic to say the least.

[the_doc]

This does not sound like Christianity to me.

You're right about that. But you were reading a nasty misrepresentation of Calvinism by an ardent anti-Calvinist.

[gdebrae]

John 5:28-29 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment. We will all come forth to judgment at the white throne in a single hour, but we don't all come forth in resurrection in a single hour. The resurrection of life [zwhV <2222>] and the resurrection of judgement [krisewV <2920>] are two different resurrections:

Aren't you forgetting a resurrection or two? Premil teaching actually specifies three resurrections, possibly even four.

First, the resurrection of the church at the rapture.

Second, the resurrection of OT believing Israel seven years later at the end of the great tribulation.

Third, those who have come to faith during the great tribulation, both Jew and Gentile believers, still have bodies that will die and they will die during the millennial reign. Rev. 7:9 describes these as a great multitude which no man could number. They will need to be raised immortal at some point.

Fourth, the resurrection of unbelieving dead at the great white throne judgment.

[Matchett-PI]

PNAMBC: "You said in the above post you were not going to post to xzins anymore on this thread, now all the lurkers know that your word means nothing."

Do you think the word of someone who would illogically say, "ALL the lurkers know [whatever]" would have any credibility with critical thinkers?

PNAMBC:"And for the rest of you guys following this false teacher around, really can't you find somebody besides this moron?"

Unless you're trying to impress relativists and other shallow, superficial, emotionally immature thinkers, you must realize you've already lost the argument when you resort to name calling.

Not only that, but you are insulting those of us who already embraced the amill doctrine (for one) that you hate (but can't disprove) long before we ever came aboard the Free Republic forum or even heard of the_doc.

Emotionally immature Christians can never get past personalities they don't *relate to* so as to be able to be objective.

Then there are others who aren't Christians to begin with, so it is a foregone conclusion that they will be attacking the messenger in hopes of destroying the message.

But as the saints (apostles) have plainly taught: "God's elect cannot be deceived by such tactics even though those who are satanically screwed can."

I'll let you locate that Scripture.

[wai-ming]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

I will have to take a closer look at Calvinism in order to understand what people of this persuasion believe.

What resources do you recommend? (Something that's clear and simple, please.)

[Starwind]

How do you know that the thousand years in Rev 20 is not a day..as a thousand years is like a day to God..or 1000,000 days ..How do you select this chapter out of a book filled woith symbolism and choose to make it literal truth?

Answering for myself now:

Well, because "as a thousand years is like a day to God" is a thousand years for us humans and a day for God, so that is consistent with what the Rev 20 text says.

Applying 2 Peter 3:8 to John 2:19 in which "Jesus answered them, 'Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up" would imply 3 thousand years from His death he'll return. He was crucified around 30 AD, so some (not I) expect His return in 2030 AD when the start of the 'third day' begins (and they compute the tribulation to begin in 2023) and 1000 human years later it would end. This application of 2 Pet 3:8 argues for a literal 1000 years, but also implies we can compute and know the date of Christ's return, which only the Father knows, so I discount this viewpoint.

Could it be longer than 1000 years? I suppose, but again other durations of time were literal: 40 days and nights, 70 sevens, etc. I've no good reason to think it longer than 1000 years, and one (or three) human day doesn't work, so 1000 years seems most consistent with all scripture until I know better.

I don't single out Rev 20 for literal interpretation. I try (albeit not always well) to interpret all of Revelation and all scripture literally, unless scripture informs me otherwise (because it is a parable for example).

[Starwind]

Is the rapture counted as a Resurrection? If so how can it precede the first resurrection?

I don't know positively if the "rapture" qualifies exactly as a "resurrection". This gets into knowing what kind of bodies are receievd in the rapture and when the rapture is. All we know for sure is the rapture is not later than the return of Christ in Rev 19. There are several rapture viewpoints. I tend to gravitate to the pre-wrath rapture viewpoint.