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To: xzins; gracebeliever; BibChr; nobdysfool; Revelation 911; drstevej; editor-surveyor; ...
An hypothesis for fitting John 5:24-29 to Revelation 20.

For the record, this hypothesis is based on my literal interpretation of Rev 20 as well as John 5, all as noted throughout this thread. (Note: all cites are NASB)

In John 5:28-29, perhaps too much was made of the phrases 'an hour is coming and now is' and 'resurrection' (implying spiritual resurrections), and too little of 'coming forth' and 'of life vs of judgment'?

Jesus used the phrase 'an hour is coming and now is' in John 4:23 as well as John 5:25.

Jesus (in John 4:21) uses the phrase 'an hour is coming' in specific reference to when the Samarian woman at the well would no longer worship neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem, possibly alluding to when the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD would end Jewish worship as she knew it:

John 4:21 Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.

Jesus (in John 4:23) goes on to describe the central tenet of the church age (begun now with Jesus himself) that true worship will be in spirit (having resulted from salvation in Christ), and salavtion and its resulting true worship occurs on an individual basis, and this is ongoing to the end of the age - from an hour now through to an hour coming:

John 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.

Jesus (in John 5:25) reuses "an hour is coming and now is" in John 5:25, when the spiritually dead will listen to Him (or the gospel), believe, and live eternally, and that this likewise begins now with Jesus and goes on to the end of the age - from an hour now through to an hour coming.

John 5:25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

(Yes, I'm quite aware I have interpreted transposing an hour 'now is' and' is coming' to fit this explanation, and arguably that would be an alteration of scripture. I'm not trying to slip this by anyone, but disclosing, attempting to find the most consistent interpretation of all scripture, including 1Thes 4:14-17 and all of Rev 20. So, indulge me momentarily).

Jesus (in John 5:28-29) then reuses "an hour is coming" again in reference to a specific future time when all will be judged according to their deeds. This is the white throne judgment.

John 5:28-29 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

We will all come forth to judgment at the white throne in a single hour, but we don't all come forth in resurrection in a single hour. The resurrection of life [zwhV <2222>] and the resurrection of judgement [krisewV <2920>] are two different resurrections:

2222 zoe dzo-ay' from 2198; life (literally or figuratively):--life(-time). Compare 5590.

2920 krisis kree'-sis decision (subjectively or objectively, for or against); by extension, a tribunal; by implication, justice (especially, divine law):--accusation, condemnation, damnation, judgment.

All the saved who were in tombs (and alive) will come forth in a single hour in physical resurrection as well, but at the Rapture, before the white throne judgement. All the unsaved who remain in tombs will come forth in a single hour in physcial resurrection, but at the white throne.

And as they are two different resurrections, and the saved who have eternal life are resurrected prior to the white throne judgment (either at the rapture or the 1st resurrection); in this context 'an hour is coming' can not mean a single hour for two events but rather a single hour each for separate events; e.g. we all have our day in court, but each on separate days. And this contextual interpretation is further consistent with a physical thousand year millenium separating the resurrection of the saved to eternal life from the resurrection of the unsaved to eternal condemnation.

All will be judged according to their deeds (the saved and unsaved) and this judgement occurs in a single hour. All books are opened; the book of life as well as the books (of works or deeds). But the saved are in the book of life and the judgment of their good deeds results in their commensurate reward in heaven, whereas the unsaved are not in the book of life and the judgment of their deeds can not save them but only condemn them - their just reward as well for rejecting Christ.

Our reward in heaven likely varies by individual, based on our deeds (presumably as judged by Jesus and presumably at the white throne judgment):

Luke 6:35 "But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.

1 Corinthians 3:8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor.

Colossians 3:23-25 Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve. For he who does wrong will receive the consequences of the wrong which he has done, and that without partiality.

2 John 1:8 Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward.

Revelation 22:12 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.

So, I've tried to show the correspondence visually, but as implied above (and in light of my literal interpretation of Rev 20), I don't see much correspondence. Maybe someone can suggest improvements?

 

Sequence commentary
John chapter 5
Revelation chapter 20
Thousand years begin   2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

Judges on thrones and Tribulation Saints reign

  4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
unsaved physcially dead stay dead   5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed.
bodily resurrection of those saved after the Rapture   This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
people who believe unto eternal life should have been raptured prior to 1000 years - 1 Thes 4:14-17 24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Ongoing era of salavation when gospel is 'heard'

'spiritually dead' born anew into spiritual life.

[the only dead in Rev 20 who 'hear' and live are the dead who stand (live) live at the white throne]

25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.  
  26 "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;  
Thousand years ends   7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
white throne judgment 27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
Singular event - physically dead in tombs 28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; 12a And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life;
resurrection to life implies saved and raptured 29a those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life,  
'dead' are judged on works 29b those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment. 12b and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
    14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
    15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

Any and all, please do point out errors or omissions, or make other suggestions. I believe there a single consistent truth for all of God's word.

Thank you. Ok, so now let the "gotcha's begin.

2,431 posted on 12/15/2002 2:58:20 PM PST by Starwind
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To: Starwind
So seeing that xzins did not want to answer How do you know that the thousand years in Rev 20 is not a day..as a thousand years is like a day to God..or 1000,000 days ..How do you select this chapter out of a book filled woith symbolism and choose to make it literal truth?
2,432 posted on 12/15/2002 3:06:01 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: Starwind
"And as they are two different resurrections, and the saved who have eternal life are resurrected prior to the white throne judgment (either at the rapture or the 1st resurrection);"

Is the rapture counted as a Resurrection? If so how can it precede the first resurrection?
2,433 posted on 12/15/2002 3:29:37 PM PST by Seven_0
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To: Starwind; the_doc; RnMomof7; CCWoody; jude24
John 5:28-29 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment. We will all come forth to judgment at the white throne in a single hour, but we don't all come forth in resurrection in a single hour. The resurrection of life [zwhV <2222>] and the resurrection of judgement [krisewV <2920>] are two different resurrections:

Aren't you forgetting a resurrection or two? Premil teaching actually specifies three resurrections, possibly even four.

First, the resurrection of the church at the rapture.

Second, the resurrection of OT believing Israel seven years later at the end of the great tribulation.

Third, those who have come to faith during the great tribulation, both Jew and Gentile believers, still have bodies that will die and they will die during the millennial reign. Rev. 7:9 describes these as a great multitude which no man could number. They will need to be raised immortal at some point.

Fourth, the resurrection of unbelieving dead at the great white throne judgment.

2,436 posted on 12/15/2002 4:03:45 PM PST by gdebrae
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To: Starwind
I made only a quick reading of the post, but did you leave out the judgement of the Church (1Cor.3:13, Rom.14:10, 2Cor.5:10) which occurs after the Rapture (during the Tribulation)?

You are correct that we will be rewarded for our deeds and the unbeliever will stand on his own works (not sins)

2,508 posted on 12/16/2002 5:42:13 AM PST by fortheDeclaration
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