Posted on 11/14/2002 11:56:40 AM PST by xzins
Very true, and there's always someone waiting to pounce on the supposed "offender" and pass judgement on whether they are even born-again, deceived, or whatever. I confess that I have played that game a little, and have since grown tired of the one-upmanship and obvious contentiousness of some of the arguments. Seems like many are talking "past" each other, not "to" each other, and there are some who justify this approach by saying "it's for the benefit of the lurkers". Sounds suspiciously like "it's for the children", the favorite mantra of the Liberal Left as they invent another way to rob us of a bit of freedom. In any event, it's not a truly charitable attitude, now is it?
One thing is certain: When Jesus returns, some will find out they were wrong, and some will find out they were right. I believe God's Grace is sufficient to cover even that. After all, it's God's agenda, not ours, and He's not waiting to see who come up with the right interpretation. He's going to accomplish His Purpose and Plan, no matter whether it's Amil, Premil, Calvinist, Arminian, Methodist, Reformed, Baptist, Pentecostal, or none of the above. Sometimes I think we are all blind men trying to describe what an elephant looks like, by feel alone. Even the best of us are still quite blind in some part.
Only if you don't chew it before you swallow it....
Amen to that.... :-)
The faith that you express in Him is a gift from him otherwise you save your self..
Jesus taught it
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Peter believed it
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Paul believed it
Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Wai your salvation is no accident God Chose you ..
Why are you so defensive? My link took people to the whole thread wherein you made all of your responses to Ethan. Anyone who is interested will read the whole thread, and in the process, read your replies.
You act as if I didn't tell everyone that you are entitled to believe in a different god than the One most of us are talking about.
You deny that the Holy Spirit is God. Most of us don't.
Therefore, it is not attacking or demonizing you to say that you do believe in a different god than the One most of us are talking about here.
For the record, this hypothesis is based on my literal interpretation of Rev 20 as well as John 5, all as noted throughout this thread. (Note: all cites are NASB)
In John 5:28-29, perhaps too much was made of the phrases 'an hour is coming and now is' and 'resurrection' (implying spiritual resurrections), and too little of 'coming forth' and 'of life vs of judgment'?
Jesus used the phrase 'an hour is coming and now is' in John 4:23 as well as John 5:25.
Jesus (in John 4:21) uses the phrase 'an hour is coming' in specific reference to when the Samarian woman at the well would no longer worship neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem, possibly alluding to when the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD would end Jewish worship as she knew it:
John 4:21 Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.
Jesus (in John 4:23) goes on to describe the central tenet of the church age (begun now with Jesus himself) that true worship will be in spirit (having resulted from salvation in Christ), and salavtion and its resulting true worship occurs on an individual basis, and this is ongoing to the end of the age - from an hour now through to an hour coming:
John 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
Jesus (in John 5:25) reuses "an hour is coming and now is" in John 5:25, when the spiritually dead will listen to Him (or the gospel), believe, and live eternally, and that this likewise begins now with Jesus and goes on to the end of the age - from an hour now through to an hour coming.
John 5:25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
(Yes, I'm quite aware I have interpreted transposing an hour 'now is' and' is coming' to fit this explanation, and arguably that would be an alteration of scripture. I'm not trying to slip this by anyone, but disclosing, attempting to find the most consistent interpretation of all scripture, including 1Thes 4:14-17 and all of Rev 20. So, indulge me momentarily).
Jesus (in John 5:28-29) then reuses "an hour is coming" again in reference to a specific future time when all will be judged according to their deeds. This is the white throne judgment.
John 5:28-29 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
We will all come forth to judgment at the white throne in a single hour, but we don't all come forth in resurrection in a single hour. The resurrection of life [zwhV <2222>] and the resurrection of judgement [krisewV <2920>] are two different resurrections:
2222 zoe dzo-ay' from 2198; life (literally or figuratively):--life(-time). Compare 5590.
2920 krisis kree'-sis decision (subjectively or objectively, for or against); by extension, a tribunal; by implication, justice (especially, divine law):--accusation, condemnation, damnation, judgment.
All the saved who were in tombs (and alive) will come forth in a single hour in physical resurrection as well, but at the Rapture, before the white throne judgement. All the unsaved who remain in tombs will come forth in a single hour in physcial resurrection, but at the white throne.
And as they are two different resurrections, and the saved who have eternal life are resurrected prior to the white throne judgment (either at the rapture or the 1st resurrection); in this context 'an hour is coming' can not mean a single hour for two events but rather a single hour each for separate events; e.g. we all have our day in court, but each on separate days. And this contextual interpretation is further consistent with a physical thousand year millenium separating the resurrection of the saved to eternal life from the resurrection of the unsaved to eternal condemnation.
All will be judged according to their deeds (the saved and unsaved) and this judgement occurs in a single hour. All books are opened; the book of life as well as the books (of works or deeds). But the saved are in the book of life and the judgment of their good deeds results in their commensurate reward in heaven, whereas the unsaved are not in the book of life and the judgment of their deeds can not save them but only condemn them - their just reward as well for rejecting Christ.
Our reward in heaven likely varies by individual, based on our deeds (presumably as judged by Jesus and presumably at the white throne judgment):
Luke 6:35 "But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.
1 Corinthians 3:8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor.
Colossians 3:23-25 Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve. For he who does wrong will receive the consequences of the wrong which he has done, and that without partiality.
2 John 1:8 Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward.
Revelation 22:12 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.
So, I've tried to show the correspondence visually, but as implied above (and in light of my literal interpretation of Rev 20), I don't see much correspondence. Maybe someone can suggest improvements?
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Sequence commentary
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John chapter 5
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Revelation chapter 20
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| Thousand years begin | 2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time. | |
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Judges on thrones and Tribulation Saints reign |
4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. | |
| unsaved physcially dead stay dead | 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. | |
| bodily resurrection of those saved after the Rapture | This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. | |
| people who believe unto eternal life should have been raptured prior to 1000 years - 1 Thes 4:14-17 | 24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. |
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Ongoing era of salavation when gospel is 'heard' 'spiritually dead' born anew into spiritual life. [the only dead in Rev 20 who 'hear' and live are the dead who stand (live) live at the white throne] |
25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. | |
| 26 "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; | ||
| Thousand years ends | 7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. | |
| white throne judgment | 27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. | 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. |
| Singular event - physically dead in tombs | 28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; | 12a And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; |
| resurrection to life implies saved and raptured | 29a those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, | |
| 'dead' are judged on works | 29b those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment. | 12b and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. |
| 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. | ||
| 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. | ||
| 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. |
Any and all, please do point out errors or omissions, or make other suggestions. I believe there a single consistent truth for all of God's word.
Thank you. Ok, so now let the "gotcha's begin.
But to also smile and claim that it isn't anything personal --- that it's just polite business --- is a bit sociopathic to say the least.
You're right about that. But you were reading a nasty misrepresentation of Calvinism by an ardent anti-Calvinist.
Aren't you forgetting a resurrection or two? Premil teaching actually specifies three resurrections, possibly even four.
First, the resurrection of the church at the rapture.
Second, the resurrection of OT believing Israel seven years later at the end of the great tribulation.
Third, those who have come to faith during the great tribulation, both Jew and Gentile believers, still have bodies that will die and they will die during the millennial reign. Rev. 7:9 describes these as a great multitude which no man could number. They will need to be raised immortal at some point.
Fourth, the resurrection of unbelieving dead at the great white throne judgment.
Do you think the word of someone who would illogically say, "ALL the lurkers know [whatever]" would have any credibility with critical thinkers?
PNAMBC:"And for the rest of you guys following this false teacher around, really can't you find somebody besides this moron?"
Unless you're trying to impress relativists and other shallow, superficial, emotionally immature thinkers, you must realize you've already lost the argument when you resort to name calling.
Not only that, but you are insulting those of us who already embraced the amill doctrine (for one) that you hate (but can't disprove) long before we ever came aboard the Free Republic forum or even heard of the_doc.
Emotionally immature Christians can never get past personalities they don't *relate to* so as to be able to be objective.
Then there are others who aren't Christians to begin with, so it is a foregone conclusion that they will be attacking the messenger in hopes of destroying the message.
But as the saints (apostles) have plainly taught: "God's elect cannot be deceived by such tactics even though those who are satanically screwed can."
I'll let you locate that Scripture.
I will have to take a closer look at Calvinism in order to understand what people of this persuasion believe.
What resources do you recommend? (Something that's clear and simple, please.)
Answering for myself now:
Well, because "as a thousand years is like a day to God" is a thousand years for us humans and a day for God, so that is consistent with what the Rev 20 text says.
Applying 2 Peter 3:8 to John 2:19 in which "Jesus answered them, 'Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up" would imply 3 thousand years from His death he'll return. He was crucified around 30 AD, so some (not I) expect His return in 2030 AD when the start of the 'third day' begins (and they compute the tribulation to begin in 2023) and 1000 human years later it would end. This application of 2 Pet 3:8 argues for a literal 1000 years, but also implies we can compute and know the date of Christ's return, which only the Father knows, so I discount this viewpoint.
Could it be longer than 1000 years? I suppose, but again other durations of time were literal: 40 days and nights, 70 sevens, etc. I've no good reason to think it longer than 1000 years, and one (or three) human day doesn't work, so 1000 years seems most consistent with all scripture until I know better.
I don't single out Rev 20 for literal interpretation. I try (albeit not always well) to interpret all of Revelation and all scripture literally, unless scripture informs me otherwise (because it is a parable for example).
I don't know positively if the "rapture" qualifies exactly as a "resurrection". This gets into knowing what kind of bodies are receievd in the rapture and when the rapture is. All we know for sure is the rapture is not later than the return of Christ in Rev 19. There are several rapture viewpoints. I tend to gravitate to the pre-wrath rapture viewpoint.
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