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Anarchism FAQ
AnarchismFAQ.org ^ | Various

Posted on 06/28/2002 12:48:37 PM PDT by Admin Moderator

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To: Admin Moderator
Each individual decides to pay or not pay.

If enough don't pay the'd better be ready to defend themselves or die.

My hunch is that it would be so inexpensive that the question would never arise.
41 posted on 06/28/2002 3:18:18 PM PDT by BADJOE
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To: Admin Moderator
The only critical decision is to defend and that is what they get paid for.
42 posted on 06/28/2002 3:19:35 PM PDT by BADJOE
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To: BADJOE
Let's say LA is bombed. Do the private mercenaries only defend those who've paid? Do they keep a database of customers?

What may be critical to you (West coast) may be different for me (Midwest). Who determines what is critical?

8

43 posted on 06/28/2002 3:30:01 PM PDT by Admin Moderator
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To: Admin Moderator
They are paid to defend areas. There will always be freeloaders.

Give me a mecenary who gets paid by the number of dead enemy bodies/downed planes, etc., any time over our current wishy washy , do we or don't we.
The bomb would have to get through the mercenary defense system first. I think they would shoot first ask questions later.
44 posted on 06/28/2002 3:41:17 PM PDT by BADJOE
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To: BADJOE
In some people's minds, critical is defined as ridding the country of jews, catholics, baptists, mormons, gays, liberals, envirowhackos, blacks, Italians, hispanics, germans, french, british, chinese, universities, professors, hollywood, disneyworld, Ted Turner types, all the alphebet soup news people, etc. Since they are ruining our country, why not eliminate them? I'm sure there would be enough people willing to contribute.

8
45 posted on 06/28/2002 3:43:03 PM PDT by Admin Moderator
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To: BADJOE
That system of government sounds very similar to the conditions that were present in Afghanistan before the Taliban took over. Better hope you have enough money and cunning to hold off the local warlord!

This conversation jumped the shark long ago, back when you said that the definition of Anarchism that all of the worldwide anarchist movements use is merely what the government wants us to think anarchism is.

Frankly, Joe, everything you have said so far sounds exactly like what is called "anarcho-capitalism". That explains why you get so defensive over me pointing out that Anarchism is first cousin to communism.

  • How would anarcho-capitalism work?

Most of the prominent anarcho-capitalist writers have been academic economists, and as such have felt it necessary to spell out the workings of their preferred society in rather greater detail than the left-anarchists have. In order to best grasp the anarcho-capitalist position, it is helpful to realize that anarcho-capitalists have emerged almost entirely out of the modern American libertarian movement, and believe that their view is simply a slightly more extreme version of the libertarianism propounded by e.g. Robert Nozick.

FAQs on the broader libertarian movement are widely available on the Net, so we will only give the necessary background here. So-called "minarchist" libertarians such as Nozick have argued that the largest justified government was one which was limited to the protection of individuals and their private property against physical invasion; accordingly, they favor a government limited to supplying police, courts, a legal code, and national defense. This normative theory is closely linked to laissez-faire economic theory, according to which private property and unregulated competition generally lead to both an efficient allocation of resources and (more importantly) a high rate of economic progress. While left-anarchists are often hostile to "bourgeois economics," anarcho-capitalists hold classical economists such as Adam Smith, David Hume, and Jean-Baptiste Say in high regard, as well as more modern economists such as Joseph Schumpeter, Ludwig von Mises, F.A. Hayek, Milton Friedman, George Stigler, and James Buchanan. The problem with free-market economists, say the anarcho-capitalists, is not that they defend the free market, but merely that their defense is too moderate and compromising.

(Note however that the left-anarchists' low opinion of the famous "free-market economists" is not monolithic: Noam Chomsky in particular has repeatedly praised some of the political insights of Adam Smith. And Peter Kropotkin also had good things to say about Smith as both social scientist and moralist; Conal Smith explains that "In particular he approved of Smith's attempt to apply the scientific method to the study of morals and society, his critique of the state in The Wealth of Nations, and his theory of human sociability in The Theory of Moral Sentiments.")

Now the anarcho-capitalist essentially turns the minarchist's own logic against him, and asks why the remaining functions of the state could not be turned over to the free market. And so, the anarcho-capitalist imagines that police services could be sold by freely competitive firms; that a court system would emerge to peacefully arbitrate disputes between firms; and that a sensible legal code could be developed through custom, precedent, and contract. And in fact, notes the anarcho-capitalist, a great deal of modern law (such as the Anglo-American common law) originated not in legislatures, but from the decentralized rulings of judges. (The anarcho-capitalist shares Kropotkin's interest in customary law, but normally believes that it requires extensive modernization and articulation.)

The anarcho-capitalist typically hails modern society's increasing reliance on private security guards, gated communities, arbitration and mediation, and other demonstrations of the free market's ability to supply the defensive and legal services normally assumed to be of necessity a government monopoly. In his ideal society, these market alternatives to government services would take over all legitimate security services. One plausible market structure would involve individuals subscribing to one of a large number of competing police services; these police services would then set up contracts or networks for peacefully handling disputes between members of each others' agencies. Alternately, police services might be "bundled" with housing services, just as landlords often bundle water and power with rental housing, and gardening and security are today provided to residents in gated communities and apartment complexes.

The underlying idea is that contrary to popular belief, private police would have strong incentives to be peaceful and respect individual rights. For first of all, failure to peacefully arbitrate will yield to jointly destructive warfare, which will be bad for profits. Second, firms will want to develop long- term business relationships, and hence be willing to negotiate in good faith to insure their long-term profitability. And third, aggressive firms would be likely to attract only high-risk clients and thus suffer from extraordinarily high costs (a problem parallel to the well-known "adverse selection problem" in e.g. medical insurance -- the problem being that high-risk people are especially likely to seek insurance, which drives up the price when riskiness is hard for the insurer to discern or if regulation requires a uniform price regardless of risk). Anarcho-capitalists generally give little credence to the view that their "private police agencies" would be equivalent to today's Mafia -- the cost advantages of open, legitimate business would make "criminal police" uncompetitive. As David Friedman explains in The Machinery of Freedom, "Perhaps the best way to see why anarcho-capitalism would be so much more peaceful than our present system is by analogy. Consider our world as it would be if the cost of moving from one country to another were zero. Everyone lives in a housetrailer and speaks the same language. One day, the president of France announces that because of troubles with neighboring countries, new military taxes are being levied and conscription will begin shortly. The next morning the president of France finds himself ruling a peaceful but empty landscape, the population having been reduced to himself, three generals, and twenty-seven war correspondents."

(Moreover, anarcho-capitalists argue, the Mafia can only thrive in the artificial market niche created by the prohibition of alcohol, drugs, prostitution, gambling, and other victimless crimes. Mafia gangs might kill each other over turf, but liquor-store owners generally do not.)

Unlike some left-anarchists, the anarcho-capitalist has no objection to punishing criminals; and he finds the former's claim that punishment does not deter crime to be the height of naivete. Traditional punishment might be meted out after a conviction by a neutral arbitrator; or a system of monetary restitution (probably in conjunction with a prison factory system) might exist instead. A convicted criminal would owe his victim compensation, and would be forced to work until he paid off his debt. Overall, anarcho-capitalists probably lean more towards the restitutionalist rather than the pure retributivist position.

Probably the main division between the anarcho-capitalists stems from the apparent differences between Rothbard's natural-law anarchism, and David Friedman's more economistic approach. Rothbard puts more emphasis on the need for a generally recognized libertarian legal code (which he thinks could be developed fairly easily by purification of the Anglo-American common law), whereas Friedman focuses more intently on the possibility of plural legal systems co-existing and responding to the consumer demands of different elements of the population. The difference, however, is probably over-stated. Rothbard believes that it is legitimate for consumer demand to determine the philosophically neutral content of the law, such as legal procedure, as well as technical issues of property right definition such as water law, mining law, etc. And Friedman admits that "focal points" including prevalent norms are likely to circumscribe and somewhat standardize the menu of available legal codes.

Critics of anarcho-capitalism sometimes assume that communal or worker-owned firms would be penalized or prohibited in an anarcho-capitalist society. It would be more accurate to state that while individuals would be free to voluntarily form communitarian organizations, the anarcho- capitalist simply doubts that they would be widespread or prevalent. However, in theory an "anarcho-capitalist" society might be filled with nothing but communes or worker- owned firms, so long as these associations were formed voluntarily (i.e., individuals joined voluntarily and capital was obtained with the consent of the owners) and individuals retained the right to exit and set up corporations or other profit-making, individualistic firms.

On other issues, the anarcho-capitalist differs little if at all from the more moderate libertarian. Services should be privatized and opened to free competition; regulation of personal AND economic behavior should be done away with. Poverty would be handled by work and responsibility for those able to care for themselves, and voluntary charity for those who cannot. (Libertarians hasten to add that a deregulated economy would greatly increase the economic opportunities of the poor, and elimination of taxation would lead to a large increase in charitable giving.)

For a detailed discussion of the economics of privatization of dispute resolution, rule creation, and enforcement, see my "The Economics of Non-State Legal Systems," which is archived with my other economics writings.

One thing that the anarchists have right is that anarcho-capitalism does not have a historical claim on the concept of Anarchism. See here.
Index | What's New | Links | Introduction | Bibliography

46 posted on 06/28/2002 3:45:00 PM PDT by Admin Moderator
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To: Admin Moderator
BS. They just might hold Liberty near and dear too.
47 posted on 06/28/2002 3:47:26 PM PDT by BADJOE
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To: Admin Moderator
There you go again.

I suppoose you believe what the communists say about themselves too. Maybe you believe the liberal democrats.

I still think you need to get a better dictionary.

Anarchy is the absence of government. Nothing more, nothing less.

48 posted on 06/28/2002 3:51:13 PM PDT by BADJOE
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To: BADJOE
You don't think there are people in this country who would love to kill jews? or blacks? or whatever other type that doesn't conform to their standard? They don't hold liberty near and dear to their hearts. If they did, they'd accept others for their differences. Look at all the junk we see, you don't think they would jump at the chance to remove them? We would have so much internal fighting among ourselves, we would eventually cease to exist. Only the strongest would survive. Is that what you really want? What if the jew hating crowd had more money than the non jew hating crowd? They get paid by the body, remember?

8
49 posted on 06/28/2002 3:53:45 PM PDT by Admin Moderator
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To: Admin Moderator
What if they don't? You can come up with all the anecdotal situations you want.

Government sure as hell can't do anything about it.
Your senarios are no more likely to happen under total liberty from government than they are now. The primary difference is government would not be around to steal from us.
50 posted on 06/28/2002 3:59:10 PM PDT by BADJOE
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To: BADJOE
Google search, let's kill jews

Google search, let's kill blacks

Google search, let's kill hispanics

It's out there, it's not anecdotal.

8

51 posted on 06/28/2002 4:06:57 PM PDT by Admin Moderator
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To: BADJOE
Just asserting it doesn't make it so, Joe. I repeat from above:
Therefore Caplan's case against the Historical Argument also fails - "anarcho-capitalism" is a misnomer because anarchism has always, in all its forms, opposed capitalism. Denying and re-writing history is hardly a means of refuting the historical argument.

Caplan ends by stating:

"Let us designate anarchism (1) anarchism as you define it. Let us designate anarchism (2) anarchism as I and the American Heritage College Dictionary define it. This is a FAQ about anarchism (2)."

Note that here we see again how the dictionary is a very poor foundation upon to base an argument. Again using Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary, we find under "anarchist" - "one who rebels against any authority, established order, or ruling power." This definition is very close to that which "traditional" anarchists have - which is the basis for our own opposition to the notion that anarchism is merely rebellion against State authority.

Clearly this definition is at odds with Caplan's own view; is Webster's then wrong, and Caplan's view right? Which view is backed by the theory and history of the movement? Surely that should be the basis of who is part of the anarchist tradition and movement and who is not? Rather than do this, Caplan and other "anarcho"-capitalists rush to the dictionary (well, those that do not define anarchy as "disorder"). This is for a reason as anarchism as a political movement as always been explicitly anti-capitalist and so the term "anarcho"-capitalism is an oxymoron.

What Caplan fails to even comprehend is that his choices are false. Anarchism can be designated in two ways:

(1). Anarchism as you define it
(2). Anarchism as the anarchist movement defines it and finds expression in the theories developed by that movement.

Caplan chooses anarchism (1) and so denies the whole history of the anarchist movement. Anarchism is not a word, it is a political theory with a long history which dictionaries cannot cover. Therefore any attempt to define anarchism by such means is deeply flawed and ultimately fails.

That Caplan's position is ultimately false can be seen from the "anarcho"-capitalists themselves. In many dictionaries anarchy is defined as "disorder," "a state of lawlessness" and so on. Strangely enough, no "anarcho"-capitalist ever uses these dictionary definitions of "anarchy"! Thus appeals to dictionaries are just as much a case of defining anarchism as you desire as not using dictionaries. Far better to look at the history and traditions of the anarchist movement itself, seek out its common features and apply those as criteria to those seeking to include themselves in the movement. As can be seen, "anarcho"-capitalism fails this test and, therefore, are not part of the anarchist movement. Far better for us all if they pick a new label to call themselves rather than steal our name.

Although most anarchists disagree on many things, the denial of its history is not one of them.

And regardless of how you define it, what you are advocating is no different than what Bill White pushes for on his website. 9
52 posted on 06/28/2002 4:12:15 PM PDT by Admin Moderator
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To: Admin Moderator
Just because they call themselves anarchists does not make them anarchists.

And please don't suggest that I would have anything to do with killing anybody because of their race or religion.

I probably would not be adverse to killing some people for their philosophy, particularly if they were marxist, communist, natzi bastards, regardless of their race or otherwise professed religion.


53 posted on 06/28/2002 4:15:46 PM PDT by BADJOE
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To: Admin Moderator
BS.

Basically, Anarchy, deriving from the greek "an-arche" (pronounced
an-ar-kay) means no foundation/principle/rule. Marxism and socialism
and anarchy are not the same at all, especially philosophically.

Socialism is the governmental control of what we would consider to be
private business. Hence: the government owns the means of production.

Marxism is a detailed "theory" of dialectical materialism and the
dialectic of negation and alienation as it systematically instantiates
itself in reality (the material world, hence dialectical materialism.)
Marx claims that there is an inherent tension between owners and workers
(workers are alienated from their product, nature, and their labor)
culminating in a battle where the universal class consciousness is
triumphant, ie the workers win, no ownership etc. It is ridiculous to
assert that anarchy, meaning rule of nothing is equivalent to a complex
theory of sublation and interaction between historical forces that
govern world history. These things are diametrically opposed. Either
there is no order in the world, a consequence of the anarchist position,
or there is a theory of world history, what Marx advances. So whoever is
trying to claim that anarchy "no ruler" is the same as having the
community rule "communism/marxism" has cartoon version of these
theories.

One needn't even reference Bakhunin in Kropotkin to discuss this unless
ones ones ideas were so fragile and weak (or their penis was so small)
that they needed to drop some names.

Again very simple here: either the community rules (communism) or
nothing rules (anarchy)
54 posted on 06/28/2002 4:18:38 PM PDT by BADJOE
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To: BADJOE
I don't think that about you at all. It never crossed my mind. As for you wanting to kill some of the nazis etc, they want it more than you. You can live by your moral code, others do not have one.

8
55 posted on 06/28/2002 4:22:06 PM PDT by Admin Moderator
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To: Admin Moderator
Okay thank you.

You and I will never agree on this becuase I won't use your definition and you won't use mine.

Philosophicly defending a private miliary is the toughest job a private enterprize lover like me has to do.

I suspect if we turned this conversation to government schools we would be in agreeement.

: )
56 posted on 06/28/2002 4:29:06 PM PDT by BADJOE
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To: BADJOE
It's not that I don't think it's a bad idea, I think we have too many people through years of liberal ideology that are revolting and would use a private system to benefit their warped sense of justice. Now, I'm all for getting the government out of schools. Which is a completely different topic. Since I believe in our constitution, and it specifically outlines the defense of our country (article one, section 8), but not schools, I want to strive to return to original intent of our government.

8
57 posted on 06/28/2002 4:35:02 PM PDT by Admin Moderator
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To: Admin Moderator
On that we are in agreement.

I just had to defend my statemnet that private enterprize does everything better faster and cheaper. If I caved on the military issue the rest of my position falls apart.
Hence I will go to the wall.

And I had fun doing it.

Thank you
58 posted on 06/28/2002 4:39:05 PM PDT by BADJOE
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To: BADJOE
Maybe if we really followed the constitution, as written, you would look at a government form of military as ok. I hope it's in my lifetime we can restore our country. I have to agree, overall it's bloated, like a beached whale.

8
59 posted on 06/28/2002 4:46:23 PM PDT by Admin Moderator
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To: Admin Moderator
I agree.

I also think to get there, some have to advocate even more liberty than it recognized, That way the middle ground becomes where our forefathers started with our devinely inspired constitution.

You may now understand why I'll take positions way out of the mainstream.
60 posted on 06/28/2002 4:53:20 PM PDT by BADJOE
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