Posted on 11/15/2008 6:48:02 PM PST by palmer
It's apparent that a combination of fervent believers and a small number of psychopaths and/or infiltrators have dominated the birth certificate discussion. The early evidence was in their favor and everyone should have been skeptical of the low res images on Kos, smears and politifact. The new evidence is not and is not being addressed objectively.
But photo #5 (and some of the others) is a genuine photograph of an artifact. It was not created in photoshop. That doesn't mean photoshop was not involved. A plausible set of steps is
1. Scan a real COLB including the border
2. Import into photoshop and change the text to Obama's text
3. Print the result onto the cross hatched paper (could be forged separately)
4. Obtain a embossing seal and apply it to the printout 5. Fold it as if it came from an envelope and display it to the factcheck photographer.
Another plausible scenario is someone in the Hawaii office did all the forging but on the official equipment and using the official seal. Another possibility is someone stole a seal and sold it to a forger. It is certainly possible for a forger to make a seal using the right equipment (probably a laser etcher).
The Kenya trip meme seemed to turn into an established fact in early July when proposed by null and void and properly ridiculed. Even into November null and void can only repeat her hypothesis (a honeymoon) apparently unwilling or unable to embellish it further.
Polarik surrounds himself with a number of true believers and useful idiots. The useful idiots are the ones who validate or praise his analysis while obviously not knowing anything about it. The true believers have convinced themselves that Obama was not born in Honolulu and are unable to evaluate the evidence objectively.
In their favor, the true believers have established that Obama has potential Indonesian citizenship (courtesy of Soetoro) as well as potential Kenyan citizenship (courtesy of Obama Sr). These are true regardless of where Obama was born. For the former the Kenyan citizenship would have to be activated by Obama. For the latter, Soetoro would have had to apply to make Obama an Indonesian citizen, it does not happen automatically via adoption.
The bottom line for Polarik is he has yet to address the certificate linked above. He has promised to do this for weeks now and is instead disseminating and repeating his various diatribes against Obama. My guess based on his past behavior is that he will release a rehash of the evidence against the old scan (Kos, smears, politifact) with a bit of new verbiage against the factcheck photos. He will properly point out some oddities in some of the photos while ignoring the obvious salient features in the decent photos such as number 5.
He and I have already argued about the seal (embossing) in number 5 and he claims it is a perfect circle (therefore forged). I showed that it wasn't http://i433.photobucket.com/albums/qq51/palmer2/circle.jpg and he replied with a very similar result except he used some edge detection first. He obviously just fools with some tools, but doesn't obtain any useful results. When it comes to image analysis he is a dabbler, not an expert.
With cover from his defenders he establishes a "sensitive" personality claiming that he is being ruthlessly attacked. He says that as a result he will stop posting on the certificate issue when he is done with his final writeup. I don't know if that's a real sensitivity or faked, but even if it is faked there are thousands more that will step into his shoes if he disappears.
That thread and others contain useful nuggets about other Obama problems. There are alternative threads that speak to real evidence although some of those get beaten down by the Polarik army. Polarik's followers also use Freepmail to spread gossip about posters like myself and allegedly (according to them) posted about me on another forum.
That is all good. The more publicity I get on this particular issue, the better. But I remain concerned that FreeRepublic will have the appearance of a conspiracy site because only a rather intensive conspiracy could produce the evidence photographed by Factcheck.
I am also concerned that Factcheck and others might be deliberately planting poor quality evidence in an attempt to hook in the Polariks of the world and their followers. That would not necessarily require a conspiracy although I admit it has the flavor of one. It is to the liberal opposition's benefit to keep as many people on false trails as possible not just to waste their time but to portray them as unhinged. That result was detrimental in the last election and will be detrimental in 2010 and 2012.
IMO of course.
mark
This whole birth certificate problem is getting flogged to death ( for good reason) but doesn’t it all boil down to the fact the head law maker in the land has committed a crime before even reaching office if he HAS presented a document that has been tampered with or even created?
That's one of the problems. Obama has supplied little evidence. Don't you think that is very odd for someone who will be CiC? He is hiding A LOT.
We know less about this man than we’ve ever known about any president.
Are you talking about the border? It's the same as the 2007 comparison document. There is the same misalignment on the edges of all the borders, they look piecemeal. The muddled look to the lines within the border have to do with the heavy weight and fiber content of the paper for 2007 (not present on the 2002 comparison.
Sure we can debate the individual elements until we are blue in the face on how they were made but it always comes back to the initial opinion of the document, it’s just too wrong to be right
We can talk about facts like how the stamp for the seal was obtained or manufactured, or we can just rely on our feelings about the document. I prefer facts.
Separate processes. The citizenship change is a nontrivial process.
And I think I’m close to understanding the “embarrassment” Obama would face if his Vault Birth Certificate were submitted. 1-Last name is not legally Obama; 2-No father listed so Mom was NOT married to Sr.; 3-Ethnicity chosen by his mother is Caucasian; 4-Born in another Country. Any or all of them would definitely embarrass Barry Obama
Those are good. I still think you need to think about how the artifact in photo#5 was created if the Obama camp created it to hide some inconvenient facts. I think there could easily be some damaging information (perhaps even just a small amount) on the long form and it was a low risk proposition to keep it hidden.
But it is not a low risk proposition to completely forge a COLB. Another possibility is he got someone in the HI office to put together the desired information on a real COLB. That scenario has a better fit to the artifact shown in photo#5. Whatever the case, we can't just say "photoshop" because that doesn't match the evidence.
Some of the analysis was good, particularly collecting other information about the addresses where his mother supposedly lived. I like a good conspiracy too, but it must have quality analysis behind it, not rantings mixed with image dabbling from Polarik.
Those spam images were used to attack posters who only expressed skepticism. Like a picture of "Obama, the Kenyan" drawn by some random Nigerian is supposed to be evidence of something!
Show me an original identical 2007 COLB with that border and I’ll drop this whole thing and declare Obama anointed supreme ruler and overlord of the entire universe.
I’m not talking about the overlay! I’m at least that smart, I’m talking about the original document in it myriad reproductions and how it does not match any other documents made at the same time from other people.
You say you deal in facts, there’s a fact for you Obama’s COLB does not match anyone else’s when you look at the border and compare it.
Explain that away, why don’t you.
There’s one possibility for you to salvage your credibility.
As things stand now it doesn’t look good for you however. What you can do is extract yourself from the little mess you’ve gotten yourself into.
You’re confusing yourself with twisted details which obscure the big picture: Obama is refusing to allow any public knowledge of his past, and he has launched an intense effort from the beginning to make sure his past remains hidden.
See the list in post 317, and explain what the hell is going on. It will give you a needed break from your current impossible task, and will help demonstrate a modicum of ability on your part to understand the general circumstances.
I don't want anyone here to do that for any reason. If you look at the first picture in Polarik's thread here: http://polarik.blogtownhall.com/2008/08/22/update_factchecks_photos_of_obamas_paper_birth_certificate_proves,_once_and_for_all,_that_their_image_of_it_was_a_forgery!.thtml the border matches perfectly at the top left. At the top right and bottom left you can see that the factcheck COLB is rotated a little clockwise (lower at top right, and left at the bottom left). That is expected on a printout, but the important comparison is how the borders match up top left. That includes all their imperfections like the side border being sloppily overlapped onto the top border.
If you want to pursue a theory of how the border was created, I am all ears. It certainly could have been a high res scan of a real 2007, then after altering the text inside the border it could have been printed onto the cross hatched paper. Then it would need to be embossed with the seal to produce photo #5. If you like reality, that's what you should be talking about and demand that kind of quality from Polarik or whoever you use for your analysis.
It has a few simple but essential requirements, and one of which is that the person is a natural born citizen of this country.
Mr. Obama's citizenship status is anything but clear.
Items that need to be cleared:
This type of ambiguity about the simplest of facts and questions about citizenship are simply not acceptable. They must be clarified.
None of this is hard. All of it is important.
Once upon a time, you would remove these types of threads and or give a user a time out.
I’ve not posted to thread. I won’t post to this thread. I would like to ping your attention to this thread because, I’ll emphasize, once upon a time you didn’t tolerate this shit.
Depending on the age of the child it did. Based on the laws in Indonesia at the time.
From Sriro's Desk Reference of Indonesian Law
Foreign persons under age of five who are adopted by Indonesian citizens obtain Indonesian citizenship following legalization of adoption process by District Court of general jurisdiction with jurisdiction over adoptive parents. (Id. at Art. (2)1)
Sriro's Desk Reference of Indonesian Law
Last paragraph of page 103
NDman - tell the truth, are you working for Obama and getting paid, or a volunteer? You registed a few days ago solely to pontificate that “anyone trying to find out if Obama is eligible to be president is a nutcase”.
I can remember similiar dressing downs for embarrassing FR for believing in and supporting two other so really dumb conspriacy theories:
#1 advanced by Interesting Times and his evil Swift Boat Vet Buddies. Heck, I was so dumb, I donated money several times to the Swift Vets to continue advancing their evil conspiracy theories
#2 Advanced by the evil Buckhead, who dared to say Blather and Mapes were lying about GW's Air National Guard time were using falsified memos, gasp.
You can’t even be a correction officer in CA if you haven’t registered with Selective Service properly (if you’re a man of course). And they check.
The only relevant question is:
WAS OBAMA BORN IN HAWAII?
Hopefully, the Keyes lawsuit will resolve that matter. If he was, in fact, born in Kenya, I can’t see any scenario that doesn’t involve a whole lot of violence.
I’m glad I own lots of firearms and know how to use them to protect myself and my family.
Can "palmer" be salvaged???
Far more so when you name them in an article and call them to ridicule.
You said:
"The Kenya trip meme seemed to turn into an established fact in early July when proposed by null and void and properly ridiculed. Even into November null and void can only repeat her hypothesis (a honeymoon) apparently unwilling or unable to embellish it further."
This has a number of factual errors:
1. I've never said the Kenya trip is an established fact.
2. I'm a guy.
3. You've dropped the context: My theory of the reasons why the newlywed Obamas would be in Kenya was in response to WOSG's assertion that there was absolutely no conceivable reason why Stanley Ann and Barak Sr. could ever possibly be in Kenya.
In all fairness your assertions about what I said does contain one actual fact:
1. Even into November null and void can only repeat her hypothesis (a honeymoon) apparently unwilling or unable to embellish it further."
I did indeed repeat my hypothesis in November, when it was brought up yet again. I am indeed unwilling to further embellish it. It still stands on its own two legs as a plausibility argument for why they would be in Kenya. It needs no further backing as an attempt to understand the actions of a couple foolish college kids nearly 50 years ago.
Here Gatún(CraigIsaMangoTreeLawyer) quotes Eunice Moscoso of The Austin Statesman:
"One of his grandfather’s wives (he calls her his grandmother but she is not) and two of his half-siblings are quoted as having been present at his birth in Kenya. An update to the Wayne Madsen report claims investigators in Kenya have found official birth registration documents setting forth his birth in Kenya. Mother’s girlfriends on Mercer Island, having seen her in late August, 1961, shortly after the claimed birth date, state that she was out of the Country when he was born."
Where was Barak, Jr. born? I don't know. And neither do you.
You think he was born in Hawaii. The evidence you offer is a document that even you agree is a poor quality document, "I am also concerned that Factcheck and others might be deliberately planting poor quality evidence"
I submit that since a real unquestionable copy of his Hawaiian BC could be sent directly from Hawaii DHS to any major news outlet with nothing more than $10 and a notarized signature, that BHO hasn't done this is very curious.
Even more curious is that immediately after BHO visited Hawaii "to see his dying grandmother" (for all of an hour) the Governor of Hawaii issued an executive order demanding that "DHS do everything in their power to prevent his BC from falling into the hands of the press". Very curious indeed.
Where was Barak, Jr. born? I don't know. And neither do you.
I think he wasn't born anywhere in the United States, its territories, or protectorates.
Why?
If he was, his real BC wouldn't need to be a secret, would it?
I also find it odd that the very first documented itty-bitty baby Barak sighting, neglecting the reports from those black, muslim (is that why you deny them, hmmmm?) people in Kenya, was 2500 miles away from Honolulu. I'm referring of course to the Susan Blake video. Susan Blake felt compelled to show Stanley Ann how to change a diaper! Just how quickly did Stanley Ann have to hop a plane to get there before she had time to learn that?
More to the point WHY would she expose a newborn to the hazards of extensive travel if she didn't think she absolutely had to?
I'd need to prove that I'm legally in the country and authorized to work to get a job washing dishes.
Should the standard for the highest office in the land be less stringent?
No one born in 1961 was ever required to register with Selective Service.
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