Posted on 05/10/2007 12:28:17 PM PDT by Gamecock
lets see what Christ and the Apostles have to say.
go read st paul, and then maybe come up with a point or something.
the fact of the matter is that (if you read that passage) you’ll note not only what Christians are exempt from but also what they are bound to.
Christians are exempt?
from circumcision yes, read st paul, THE CHURCH had a COUNCIL and determined who still had to be circumcised.
the Latins would argue that a local diocese does not have autonomy of any sort as all dioceses are subject to the immediate jurisdiction of the Pope
That is not the Latin position, but it makes a nice straw man.
-A8
“the Latins would argue that a local diocese does not have autonomy of any sort as all dioceses are subject to the immediate jurisdiction of the Pope
That is not the Latin position, but it makes a nice straw man.”
A8, I assure you I didn’t mean to set up a straw man. The distinction I am pointing to is that between the Latin and Orthodox interpretations of +Ignatius of Antioch’s definition of The Church. That difference has always, well at least for the past 11-1200 years, been important and fundamental to a clear understanding of how the Latin and Orthodox Churches view the “fullness” of The Church. +BXVI has spoken clearly on this and the most recent dialogs between the Latin and Orthodox theologians have focused on this very issue in their discussions on whether the role of the Pope is of the “esse” or “bene esse” of The Church. +BXVI’s position is generally consistent with some of the less frequently quoted dogmatic teachings of Vatican I which are quite opposed to the teachings and understanding of Orthodoxy.
I am at the office now, but this evening I’ll post those teachings and you’ll see that this is no strawman but rather a very serious and Church dividing issue. It likely has no meaning for our non-Latin Western Christian brethren, but it does for you and me and the rest of us in The Church.
As promised:
“Chapter 1 On the institution of the apostolic primacy in blessed Peter
1. We teach and declare that,
* according to the gospel evidence,
* a primacy of jurisdiction over the whole church of God
* was immediately and directly
o promised to the blessed apostle Peter and
o conferred on him by Christ the lord.
[PROMISED]
2. It was to Simon alone,
* to whom he had already said
o You shall be called Cephas [42] ,
that the Lord,
* after his confession, You are the Christ, the son of the living God,
spoke these words:
* Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
* And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the underworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven [43] .
[CONFERRED]
3. And it was to Peter alone that Jesus,
* after his resurrection,
confided the jurisdiction of supreme pastor and ruler of his whole fold, saying:
* Feed my lambs, feed my sheep [44] .
4. To this absolutely manifest teaching of the sacred scriptures, as it has always been understood by the catholic church, are clearly opposed the distorted opinions of those who misrepresent the form of government which Christ the lord established in his church and deny that Peter, in preference to the rest of the apostles, taken singly or collectively, was endowed by Christ with a true and proper primacy of jurisdiction.
5. The same may be said of those who assert that this primacy was not conferred immediately and directly on blessed Peter himself, but rather on the church, and that it was through the church that it was transmitted to him in his capacity as her minister.
6. Therefore,
* if anyone says that
o blessed Peter the apostle was not appointed by Christ the lord as prince of all the apostles and visible head of the whole church militant; or that
o it was a primacy of honour only and not one of true and proper jurisdiction that he directly and immediately received from our lord Jesus Christ himself:
let him be anathema.
Chapter 2. On the permanence of the primacy of blessed Peter in the Roman pontiffs
1. That which our lord Jesus Christ, the prince of shepherds and great shepherd of the sheep, established in the blessed apostle Peter, for the continual salvation and permanent benefit of the church, must of necessity remain for ever, by Christ’s authority, in the church which, founded as it is upon a rock, will stand firm until the end of time [45] .
2. For no one can be in doubt, indeed it was known in every age that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the apostles, the pillar of faith and the foundation of the catholic church, received the keys of the kingdom from our lord Jesus Christ, the saviour and redeemer of the human race, and that to this day and for ever he lives and presides and exercises judgment in his successors the bishops of the holy Roman see, which he founded and consecrated with his blood [46] .
3. Therefore whoever succeeds to the chair of Peter obtains by the institution of Christ himself, the primacy of Peter over the whole church. So what the truth has ordained stands firm, and blessed Peter perseveres in the rock-like strength he was granted, and does not abandon that guidance of the church which he once received [47] .
4. For this reason it has always been necessary for every church—that is to say the faithful throughout the world—to be in agreement with the Roman church because of its more effective leadership. In consequence of being joined, as members to head, with that see, from which the rights of sacred communion flow to all, they will grow together into the structure of a single body [48] .
5. Therefore,
* if anyone says that
o it is not by the institution of Christ the lord himself (that is to say, by divine law) that blessed Peter should have perpetual successors in the primacy over the whole church; or that
o the Roman pontiff is not the successor of blessed Peter in this primacy:
let him be anathema.
Chapter 3. On the power and character of the primacy of the Roman pontiff
1. And so,
* supported by the clear witness of holy scripture, and
* adhering to the manifest and explicit decrees both of our predecessors
o the Roman pontiffs and of
o general councils,
* we promulgate anew the definition of the ecumenical council of Florence [49] ,
* which must be believed by all faithful Christians, namely that
o the apostolic see and the Roman pontiff hold a world-wide primacy, and that
o the Roman pontiff is the successor of blessed Peter,
+ the prince of the apostles,
+ true vicar of Christ,
+ head of the whole church and
+ father and teacher of all christian people.
o To him, in blessed Peter, full power has been given by our lord Jesus Christ to
+ tend,
+ rule and govern
+ the universal church.
All this is to be found in the acts of the ecumenical councils and the sacred canons.
2. Wherefore we teach and declare that,
* by divine ordinance,
* the Roman church possesses a pre-eminence of ordinary power over every other church, and that
* this jurisdictional power of the Roman pontiff is both
o episcopal and
o immediate.
* Both clergy and faithful,
o of whatever rite and dignity,
o both singly and collectively,
* are bound to submit to this power by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this
o not only in matters concerning faith and morals,
o but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the church throughout the world.
3. In this way, by unity with the Roman pontiff in communion and in profession of the same faith , the church of Christ becomes one flock under one supreme shepherd [50] .
4. This is the teaching of the catholic truth, and no one can depart from it without endangering his faith and salvation.
5. This power of the supreme pontiff by no means detracts from that ordinary and immediate power of episcopal jurisdiction, by which bishops, who have succeeded to the place of the apostles by appointment of the holy Spirit, tend and govern individually the particular flocks which have been assigned to them. On the contrary, this power of theirs is asserted, supported and defended by the supreme and universal pastor; for St Gregory the Great says: “My honour is the honour of the whole church. My honour is the steadfast strength of my brethren. Then do I receive true honour, when it is denied to none of those to whom honour is due.” [51]
6. Furthermore, it follows from that supreme power which the Roman pontiff has in governing the whole church, that he has the right, in the performance of this office of his, to communicate freely with the pastors and flocks of the entire church, so that they may be taught and guided by him in the way of salvation.
7. And therefore we condemn and reject the opinions of those who hold that
* this communication of the supreme head with pastors and flocks may be lawfully obstructed; or that
* it should be dependent on the civil power, which leads them to maintain that what is determined by the apostolic see or by its authority concerning the government of the church, has no force or effect unless it is confirmed by the agreement of the civil authority.
8. Since the Roman pontiff, by the divine right of the apostolic primacy, governs the whole church, we likewise teach and declare that
* he is the supreme judge of the faithful [52] , and that
* in all cases which fall under ecclesiastical jurisdiction recourse may be had to his judgment [53] .
* The sentence of the apostolic see (than which there is no higher authority) is not subject to revision by anyone,
* nor may anyone lawfully pass judgment thereupon [54] . And so
* they stray from the genuine path of truth who maintain that it is lawful to appeal from the judgments of the Roman pontiffs to an ecumenical council as if this were an authority superior to the Roman pontiff.
9. So, then,
* if anyone says that
o the Roman pontiff has merely an office of supervision and guidance, and
+ not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole church, and this
+ not only in matters of
# faith and morals, but also in those which concern the
# discipline and government of the church dispersed throughout the whole world; or that
o he has only the principal part, but not the absolute fullness, of this supreme power; or that
o this power of his is not ordinary and immediate both over all and each of the churches and over all and each of the pastors and faithful:
let him be anathema.”
No strawman there, A8 but rather the teachings and anathemas of the Latin Church from Vatican I. These are among the saddest declarations of any council since it appears to have boxed the Latin Church into a position where there will be no unity with the East absent the “submission” of the Eastern bishops and patriarchs to Roman “immediate jurisdiction” which simply will never happen. The Patriarchs know this; +BXVI certainly knows this. There are, however, some brilliant theologians working on this, among the finest of them the Pope and the EP themselves and several of Orthodoxy’s greatest, Met John of Pergamum being the premier among them. Vatican I is the Berlin Wall of the Great Schism nowadays. Pray that they will find a way around it. Thinking that the issue of episcopal autonomy is a strawman is exactly the wrong sort of thinking.
-A8
It looks to me that Rome isn’t the only thing burning these days. The Vatican is going up in smoke, also. First the vatican reconizing, evolution-creation theory. Know, that Allah is God according to the Pope.
Not only did the Islamic faith deny Jesus as Lord, but our killing christian and jews. Heirs by faith and blood line, to the kingdom of God or is it Allah? Im comfused.....Just kidding. But only the just shall live by faith, not by denomination. And faith comes by the hearing of God word, or was that Allah. Darn I can not remeber. And false christ abound everywhere both in body and word. Some times in our own backyards.
The devil has clearly won this round. And kicking ass on the protestant side of the fence, also. And the so call Pope has lost it, clearly. Despite all the flower words to cover it up.
Dave, chill.
The pope rejected evolution as nihilist. It’s intelligent design which is being discussed, and even that’s gotten mostly criticism.
Second, while the pope does state that Moslems are referring to the God of Abraham when refer to Allah, he presents Islam as a bastardization (my words) of Christianity: a lie, a perversion. Even his apology for echoing a medieval patriarch who said that Islam has created nothing new but evil and bloodshed did not contain any retraction.
Oh, Dave... I just read the original thread. No wonder you’re rattled. Don’t worry. The author is just carrying on the work of Jack Chick, the most infamous religious-conspiracy lunatic of all time.
One last comment. For an example of how the article is full of nonsense, the opening section quotes, in feigned horror, what appears to be the Pope joining his prayers with Muslims:
>> In the name of this one God, I turn to the people of deep and ancient religious traditions, the people of Kazakhstan. <<
Out of context, this looks like he is simply lumping Christians and Muslims together. But he’s not. He continues:
>> “I turn as well to those who belong to no religion and to those who are searching for truth... There is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” <<
Islam is no more one with Christianity than atheists are; he is proclaiming Christ to Islam and atheist alike.
Even the article’s attribution, to “the Pope” is misleading. Not that it would matter if this were a doctrinal statement, but “the Pope” referred to is not Pope Benedict XVI. It is John Paul II, immediately after September 11th, having the balls to walk among the Muslims to proclaim Christ, and that the way of the God of Abraham is the way of Love, a direct rebuke to Wahabbism’s god of destruction.
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