Posted on 12/04/2006 6:10:06 PM PST by goldstategop
RUSH: John in Shreveport, Louisiana. Hello.
CALLER: Mr. Rush, don't you think you're being a hypocrite when you're not -- when you don't want the Iraqis to decide the problems themselves, especially since Abraham Lincoln took two -- two generals named Lincoln [sic--Grant] and Sherman who were responsible for the deaths of 59,000 southern people? And since you hate Confederate heritage that much, don't you think that we should allow the people of Iraq to decide their own fate?
RUSH: (Laughing.) Gee. I hate Confederate heritage?
CALLER: No kidding.
RUSH: On the basis of what do you say that?
CALLER: Okay, allow me to quote you from 2001: "The American Civil War was the first conflict in human history to set a people free from the bondage of slavery." Your quote, sir.
RUSH: Yeah?
CALLER: And that's not --
RUSH: Well, the point is, we fought --
CALLER: -- power --
RUSH: Are we going to have this argument, Steve?
CALLER: Yes, sir, we are, if you've got the nerve to hold it!
RUSH: I'll have this argument with you any time you want. I've been hearing from you guys since I started this show. I know, it's about states' rights, it was about freedom; it was about independence. But it was about preserving the union -- and Abraham Lincoln knew that you couldn't preserve an America with the institutions defined by our Constitution if one man was allowed to own another.
CALLER: Well, you could not preserve the Constitution as long as you could override it by military power and invasion.
RUSH: Well, there was the preservation of the union that was the number one --
CALLER: How about the preservation of the Constitution, shouldn't that be predominant?
RUSH: Look, you still want to secede? What's your solution?
CALLER: We have no choice, we're under occupation now. The thing about it is you still have to lie about Abraham Lincoln to prove your, to make your point.
RUSH: I'm not lying about Abraham Lincoln. What do you mean, you're still under occupation?
CALLER: Put it this way. The South was not allowed to vote its own way; we're not going to allow Iraq to vote its own government, either.
RUSH: But we did.
CALLER: Do you think we're really abiding by that? What they voted for, we're trying to subvert it by military occupation. No difference than what they did here for 12 years in Louisiana. You don't think we don't see that? You don't think we don't see you as a hypocrite for what you say about, oh, yeah, preserve the union, but let's never mind, let's take away the vote from those who are the voting citizens --
RUSH: I cannot believe this!
CALLER: -- Constitution!
RUSH: I can't believe this. You are taking out your frustrations at having lost the Civil War on me and claiming I'm a hypocrite because of my stance on the Iraq war?
CALLER: Yes, sir.
RUSH: Which I don't even think you know what it is.
CALLER: I don't think you know -- I don't think you know who Abraham Lincoln was.
RUSH: I certainly know who Abraham Lincoln was. He's one of the greatest presidents in the history of the country.
CALLER: Who said that --
RUSH: And it wasn't because he defeated the south. It was because he preserved the union.
CALLER: He preserved the union by trampling the Constitution!
RUSH: He did not trample the Constitution. He suspended habeas corpus. He did do some things I wish Bush would do.
CALLER: Like kill 59,000 innocent civilians?
RUSH: Are you talking about Sherman's march through Atlanta?
CALLER: And -- and -- and Grant's shelling the city of Vicksburg. Hello?
RUSH: It won the war, didn't it? You ever heard of Gettysburg? It won the war and that was the objective. I'll tell you what I wish Bush would do that Lincoln did. Take all these anti-war agitators and send 'em to Canada. Send the National Guard in there. Send Harry Reid over to Baghdad if he's going to be so socially --
CALLER: Like that Ohio Congressman Vallandigham, huh?
RUSH: Absolutely, like that Ohio congressman, that Democrat that was snatched out of his house and sent down to Jefferson Davis, who also didn't want him.
CALLER: Well, at least I got you to acknowledge that.
RUSH: Acknowledge what?
CALLER: Well, the fact that Lincoln did have his secret police who went into people's houses, pulled them out in the middle of the night, and had them -- and had them --
RUSH: You know what? I hope before you die you learn to thank God for Abraham Lincoln.
CALLER: I hope before you die you learn what a racist and a bigot and a power-hungry maniac he was.
RUSH: I'm the racist and the bigot?
CALLER: I didn't say you were. I said he was!
RUSH: Oh. Abraham Lincoln? How in the world you can call a guy who ended slavery a racist and a bigot? I have heard everything now. Everything, in 22 years of hosting this program, I have heard everything.
"...And a simple majority vote in both houses of Congress should be all that is needed for a state to leave. The same way they are admitted." NS
Ahhh - but that is not how Virginia was admitted. Virgtinia made a decision on its own, and decided with some conditions, that it would join the union. One of those explicit conditions was that Virginia could decide, on its own, that it would leave the union if right were infringed.
The conditions of that case are unique to Texas.
"Quote your primary source in full and in context, and not in selected partial sentences."
I'm giving you MORE than you give me. I provide quote and link. How about you doing the same. Your document could be from anywhere.
"The claims were resolved in the legislation previously cited:"
Says who? Source? Come on dude. Quite asking me to do what you don't.
Texas may have been the plaintiff in the case, but the ruling, that unilateral secession as practiced by Texas, encompasses all similar situations.
Ah, but that doesn't matter. Virginia agreed to abide by the Constitution and does not have any rights or powers or privileges that every other state doesn't have. Ratification was unconditional, nothing in the Constitution allowed for it. If Virginia decided to resume powers and leave the Union then she had to do it within the guidelines of the Constitution. And as the Supreme Court has ruled, leaving can be done through revolution or with the consent of the states. Virginia chose revolution.
First get your facts straight. The Maryland legislature was not disbanded, nor were all it's members imprisoned. The legislature continued to meet, but several members who were advocating armed rebellion against the United States were jailed for a period in the fall of 1861.
And I'm merely pointing out that had the rebels won they would not have demonstrated any more morality in this area than the Union did.
A cursory look at his record shows that the title is well deserved.
NEITHER man PERSONALLY committed "crimes against humanity", but BOTH "suffered those unlawful acts to be committed & took no positive action to assure that the persons, who committed the outrages against innocent persons, were prosecuted & severely punished".
fwiw, GEN Yamashita was HANGED for his failure to act to protect the INNOCENT from harm.
free dixie,sw
imVho, the persons who claim FALSELY that the BRAVE Black union soldiers "gave up & threw down their arms",(they actually fought on at Ft Pillow & did NOT surrender to Forrest's overwhelming force) DISHONOR the bravery & sacrifice of those soldiers.
free dixie,sw
That is a myth. Upon ratification, Virginia was just as bound to the Union as ever other state.
free dixie,sw
ask "serena" of this forum what happened to her great-grandfather at Point Lookout DEATH CAMP.
fyi, at least 15,ooo helpLESS prisoners of war were MURDERED by the DYs at just that one HELL-HOLE.
fwiw, FOUR of my ancestors were summarily murdered there, just because they were NOT "white persons".
IF you were captured by the union army, were taken to PLDC & happened to be "other than white", Jewish,Roman Catholic, Asian or Latino your chances of being IMMEDIATELY murdered were EXCELLENT.
free dixie,sw
fyi, the "war between blue & gray" continues by other means than gunfire.
free dixie,sw
Chief Justice Taney's ruling was never overturned, so it stands.
I guess according to your line of reasoning, Lincoln's Chief of the Army and the Secretary of State can suspend it too. Maybe I could do it if I wanted to.
HEADQUARTERS,
Fort Hamilton, N. Y., July 31, 1861.
Colonel E. D. TOWNSEND,
Asst. Adjt. General, Hdqrs. of the Army, Washington City, D. C.
SIR: I have this day received at Fort Lafayette the following named prisoners charged with offenses against the United States Government, viz; R. H. Alvey, John H. Kusick, John W. Davis, Dr. Edward Johnson, T. C. Fitzpatrick, William H. Gatchell, Charles M. Hagelin, Charles Howard, Samuel C. Lyon, James E. Humphrey or Murphrey.
Please inform me if I shall consider them in the same light in the event of a writ of habeas corpus as I do Ruggles and McGuillam and whether I shall make the same return (if required) as I have already done in the case of McGuillam. The prisoners were sent here by order of Major General John A. Dix, commanding Department of Maryland.
I have the honor to be, sir, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
MARTIN BURKE,
Colonel First Artillery, Commanding
------------------------
HEADQUARTERS OF THE ARMY,
Washington, August 2, 1861.
Lieutenant Colonel MARTIN BURKE, U. S. Army,
Commanding, &c., No. 6 State Street, New York City:
Should the writ of habeas corpus come for the production in court of any of your political prisoners you will respond thereto that you deeply regret that pending existing political troubles you cannot comply with the requisition of the honorable judge.
WINFIELD SCOTT
------------------------
DEPARTMENT OF STATE,
Washington, August 8, 1861.
Lieutenant General WINFIELD SCOTT, Washington
GENERAL: This Department having received information to the effect that the late police commissioners of Baltimore now confined at Fort Lafayette, New York Harbor, have taken measures to sue out a writ of habeas corpus I will thank you to direct by telegraph the officer in command there not to obey the writ.
I have the honor to be, your obedient servant,
WILLIAM H. SEWARD
------------------------
FORT HAMILTON, N. Y., August 12, 1861.
Lieutenant-General SCOTT, U. S. Army:
There is an attachment issued for my person and it is reported that a posse will try to execute the writ and take the prisoners from Fort Lafayette. Shall I resist or what course shall I pursue?
MARTIN BURKE,
Colonel
------------------------
HEADQUARTERS OF THE ARMY,
Washington, August 13, 1861.
Colonel HENRY L. SCOTT,
Inspector-General, Commanding, &c., New York:
Fort Lafayette is threatened with an attack by the sheriff and his posse to seize Colonel Burke. Send him a re-enforcement of some companies of volunteers which have been mustered into service without delay.
WINFIELD SCOTT
Source
These prisoners had been sent to New York City outside of the area of conflict. Apparently the government didn't have anything to hold them on that would hold up before a judge.
Their effort to thwart civil law and the Constitution reminds me of what Chief Justice Taney said in Ex Parte Merryman:
These great and fundamental laws, which congress itself could not suspend, have been disregarded and suspended, like the writ of habeas corpus, by a military order, supported by force of arms. Such is the case now before me, and I can only say that if the authority which the constitution has confided to the judiciary department and judicial officers, may thus, upon any pretext or under any circumstances, be usurped by the military power, at its discretion, the people of the United States are no longer living under a government of laws, but every citizen holds life, liberty and property at the will and pleasure of the army officer in whose military district he may happen to be found.
lincoln, in his own hand, stated that when the war was over that he planned to DEPORT all the Blacks in the USA to Africa & "drive from our dominions or EXTERMINATE to the last one", the American Indians.
"really nice guy", your HERO, linoln, the UNjust!
free dixie,sw
anyone, who said ANYTHING against lincoln & "his merry band of criminals", was JAILED or WORSE! (fyi, i have STOOD in the dungeon at Ft McHenry, where "newspapermen", who reported the TRUTH, were "guests of lincoln, the TYRANT". it's NOT a nice place to visit, much less "reside in". when i asked to go "down there", the NCOIC said, "i can let you in down there, but it's a TERRIBLE PLACE".)
you really SHOULD go do some reading from other than DY-apologist sources. then you wouldn't look clueLESS!
free dixie,sw
free dixie,sw
Sure does. And if I recall correctly Merryman was later released and not arrested again. But the Constitutional question of who exactly may suspend habeas corpus remains undecided.
show us the PROOF that the SOURCE documents are themselves CORRECT & we won't laugh AT you!
free dixie,sw
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