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Churches urged to back evolution
British Broadcasting Corporation ^ | 20 February 2006 | Paul Rincon

Posted on 02/20/2006 5:33:50 AM PST by ToryHeartland

Churches urged to back evolution By Paul Rincon BBC News science reporter, St Louis

US scientists have called on mainstream religious communities to help them fight policies that undermine the teaching of evolution.

The American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) hit out at the "intelligent design" movement at its annual meeting in Missouri.

Teaching the idea threatens scientific literacy among schoolchildren, it said.

Its proponents argue life on Earth is too complex to have evolved on its own.

As the name suggests, intelligent design is a concept invoking the hand of a designer in nature.

It's time to recognise that science and religion should never be pitted against each other Gilbert Omenn AAAS president

There have been several attempts across the US by anti-evolutionists to get intelligent design taught in school science lessons.

At the meeting in St Louis, the AAAS issued a statement strongly condemning the moves.

"Such veiled attempts to wedge religion - actually just one kind of religion - into science classrooms is a disservice to students, parents, teachers and tax payers," said AAAS president Gilbert Omenn.

"It's time to recognise that science and religion should never be pitted against each other.

"They can and do co-exist in the context of most people's lives. Just not in science classrooms, lest we confuse our children."

'Who's kidding whom?'

Eugenie Scott, director of the National Center for Science Education, which campaigns to keep evolution in public schools, said those in mainstream religious communities needed to "step up to the plate" in order to prevent the issue being viewed as a battle between science and religion.

Some have already heeded the warning.

"The intelligent design movement belittles evolution. It makes God a designer - an engineer," said George Coyne, director of the Vatican Observatory.

"Intelligent design concentrates on a designer who they do not really identify - but who's kidding whom?"

Last year, a federal judge ruled in favour of 11 parents in Dover, Pennsylvania, who argued that Darwinian evolution must be taught as fact.

Dover school administrators had pushed for intelligent design to be inserted into science teaching. But the judge ruled this violated the constitution, which sets out a clear separation between religion and state.

Despite the ruling, more challenges are on the way.

Fourteen US states are considering bills that scientists say would restrict the teaching of evolution.

These include a legislative bill in Missouri which seeks to ensure that only science which can be proven by experiment is taught in schools.

I think if we look at where the empirical scientific evidence leads us, it leads us towards intelligent design Teacher Mark Gihring "The new strategy is to teach intelligent design without calling it intelligent design," biologist Kenneth Miller, of Brown University in Rhode Island, told the BBC News website.

Dr Miller, an expert witness in the Dover School case, added: "The advocates of intelligent design and creationism have tried to repackage their criticisms, saying they want to teach the evidence for evolution and the evidence against evolution."

However, Mark Gihring, a teacher from Missouri sympathetic to intelligent design, told the BBC: "I think if we look at where the empirical scientific evidence leads us, it leads us towards intelligent design.

"[Intelligent design] ultimately takes us back to why we're here and the value of life... if an individual doesn't have a reason for being, they might carry themselves in a way that is ultimately destructive for society."

Economic risk

The decentralised US education system ensures that intelligent design will remain an issue in the classroom regardless of the decision in the Dover case.

"I think as a legal strategy, intelligent design is dead. That does not mean intelligent design as a social movement is dead," said Ms Scott.

"This is an idea that has real legs and it's going to be around for a long time. It will, however, evolve."

Among the most high-profile champions of intelligent design is US President George W Bush, who has said schools should make students aware of the concept.

But Mr Omenn warned that teaching intelligent design will deprive students of a proper education, ultimately harming the US economy.

"At a time when fewer US students are heading into science, baby boomer scientists are retiring in growing numbers and international students are returning home to work, America can ill afford the time and tax-payer dollars debating the facts of evolution," he said. Story from BBC NEWS: http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/sci/tech/4731360.stm

Published: 2006/02/20 10:54:16 GMT

© BBC MMVI


TOPICS: Heated Discussion
KEYWORDS: bearingfalsewitness; crevolist; darwin; evolution; freeperclaimstobegod; goddooditamen; godknowsthatiderslie; idoogabooga; ignoranceisstrength; intelligentdesign; liarsforthelord; ludditesimpletons; monkeygod; scienceeducation; soupmyth; superstitiousnuts; youngearthcultists
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To: PatrickHenry; donh

Oops. That just sounded too much like an urban legend. I still have my doubts. I have requested that my post be pulled.


1,821 posted on 02/23/2006 6:39:26 PM PST by P-Marlowe
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To: PatrickHenry
The Indiana Pi Bill (1897).

Ironically it was not religious beliefs but faulty scientific theory which brought the bill about.

1,822 posted on 02/23/2006 6:41:31 PM PST by Always Right
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To: P-Marlowe

From your own link:

"Though the claim about the Alabama state legislature is pure nonsense, it is similar to an event that happened more than a century ago. In 1897 the Indiana House of Representatives unanimously passed a measure redefining the area of a circle and the value of pi. (House Bill no. 246, introduced by Rep. Taylor I. Record.) The bill died in the state Senate."


1,823 posted on 02/23/2006 6:42:05 PM PST by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is grandeur in this view of life...")
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To: PatrickHenry

FWIW, it does not appear that they were trying to use any kind of biblical formula. I don't see any attempt to make pi=3.


1,824 posted on 02/23/2006 6:43:22 PM PST by P-Marlowe
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To: CarolinaGuitarman; donh
But they didn't try to do it to match the biblical problem we have been discussing here. They did it apparently to give some recognition to a theory about the area of a circle being impossible to determine using the pi r squared formula.

Donh stated that they tried to pass a law making pi=3. Which is not exactly true.

1,825 posted on 02/23/2006 6:45:51 PM PST by P-Marlowe
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To: P-Marlowe
FWIW, it does not appear that they were trying to use any kind of biblical formula. I don't see any attempt to make pi=3.

Some guy did some experimenting with squaring circles and figured the area was actually 3.2. The guy had a buddy who was a legislater who intoduced the bill and would give the guy royalties to anyone who used his value. Ironically, it was lousy scientific and definitely not religious.

1,826 posted on 02/23/2006 6:49:55 PM PST by Always Right
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To: When_Penguins_Attack
I have no problem with science per se being concerned with the "non-miraculous." The division of the world into the "natural and supernatural" as though the natural world just chugs along on its own is a product of rationalism, not science. I believe that the majesty of God is exercised (in fact, I believe it is DEMANDED) by the complexity and order of the universe. This was the world of some of the greatest scientific minds the world has ever known.

Generally, I agree with you. Notice, however, that the above in no way conflicts with Darwin's theory. Nor does the above imply what people like Dembski and Behe call "intelligent design."

I object to scientists attempting to do a bait and switch and talk about issues outside their domeain and call it "science."

I agree, though I think most scientists do respect the boundaries of their discipline. The Dawkins of the world are a tiny minority.

Please see my response to Thatcherite for a slightly more treanchant statement of that point.,

I'd like to take a look at it. Would you mind giving me a post number?

1,827 posted on 02/23/2006 6:50:05 PM PST by curiosity
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To: P-Marlowe
Oops. That just sounded too much like an urban legend. I still have my doubts. I have requested that my post be pulled.

Sounds like a slice of humble pi is in order:)

1,828 posted on 02/23/2006 6:50:51 PM PST by Ken H
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To: Ken H; donh
Sounds like a slice of humble pi is in order:)

After review the actual bill it is clear that what Donh said was simply not true. Indiana did not try to redefine the formula to pi=3. That was a false statement. What Indiana tried to do was to codify a new formula for determining the area of a circle. There was no attempt to legislate the I Kings 7:23.

Don had it half right, so I can't accuse him of being a "liar" but he made an error.

1,829 posted on 02/23/2006 7:06:19 PM PST by P-Marlowe
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To: P-Marlowe

Why have your post pulled?...frankly, I find the whole discussion about this subject and the different responses to it, enlightening...


1,830 posted on 02/23/2006 7:10:31 PM PST by andysandmikesmom
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To: P-Marlowe; donh
" Don had it half right, so I can't accuse him of being a "liar" but he made an error."

You also had it half right/half wrong too. You wouldn't have made that mistake if you had read that last paragraph from the link you provided, where the Indiana bill was mentioned. It seems there is enough blame to go around. We all have pi on our faces. :)
1,831 posted on 02/23/2006 7:15:50 PM PST by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is grandeur in this view of life...")
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To: andysandmikesmom; donh
Why have your post pulled?.

I feel that it was too harsh. Don made an error, but so did I. The fact is that the Indiana Legislature did try to redefine the formula for determining the area of a circle (a rather stupid leglislative enterprise). I had assumed that was a rumor as well. But Donh interjected the rumor of pi=3 into the fact of the Indiana Legislature's bill and made the claim that the Indiana Legislature tried to redefine the formula for pi to match the alleged error in I Kings 7:23. That is not what happened.

So I think it would be best if the post were pulled. Now that we've dispensed with the silly rumors, perhaps we can get back to an intelligent discussion.

1,832 posted on 02/23/2006 7:18:19 PM PST by P-Marlowe
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To: andysandmikesmom

'Pi' placemarker


1,833 posted on 02/23/2006 7:19:08 PM PST by andysandmikesmom
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To: CarolinaGuitarman
See post 1832. :-)

BTW when are we going to meet again for practice? I left the lyrics to my last song on some faraway thread and I can't find it. Since I abandoned it, I suspect it will show up on some platinum label sleeve jacket someplace.

1,834 posted on 02/23/2006 7:21:13 PM PST by P-Marlowe
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To: P-Marlowe

Well, I think what was learned was that sometimes people on both sides of the issue can and do make mistakes, and perhaps this latest exchange showed the 'correct' way in which to work through it, in a civil manner...

All too often, when someone has been shown that they are in error, they refuse to admit it, and holler and scream and then run away...and often go on to repeat the very same error...

In this case now, errors made on both sides were recognized, and handled in a civil mature manner...thats a good lesson for all, I think...

Just my opinion for what its worth, and some on these threads think my opinion is worthless....I just think this exchange was an education in how to resolve things in the true FR spirit...


1,835 posted on 02/23/2006 7:24:00 PM PST by andysandmikesmom
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To: thomaswest

A quick google search will show that it was the medical establishment which rejected Semmelweiss' observations initially because it went against current scientific opinion at the time. Can't blame the *church* for that one too much.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Semmelweis


1,836 posted on 02/23/2006 9:35:20 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom
hey just putting my two measly cents in....

I'm currently taking an anthropology course in college...
My professor is a great lady who has approached her teaching with respect of other people's opinions...she has been the only reason I have stayed in the class

The book we are being taught from, on the other hand, is not at all respectful of other peoples views...basically what they said is, if you are religious and you are skeptical about evolution you are fundamentalist with a pea brain.

basically

As a christian I have absolutely no aversion to science...I don't have to agree with the science simply because I learn about it. My objection isn't to the science, it's to the way the scientists..some...have shown no regard whatsoever for other people's views.

I don't see how evolution doesn't fit in with the bible...

I also don't think, after taking this class, that's it's quite as proven as some like to claim...

They state they have overwhelming evidence...but just today we learned most of the fossil evidence they have amounts to nothing more than disjointed and fragmented bone.

It's very much conjecture on their part.

Some of the theory makes sense, but as of yet, I haven't seen this overwhelming evidence they speak of.

I'll let ya'll know more when I'm done with the class...

by the way...I have a solid A in this class...goes to show not all fundamentalist christians are incapable of intelligent thought.

Oh about teaching it in school...it should be taught in science class. Religion should be taught at home or in a class that is not required...I certainly don't want them requiring my child to learn all about the Koran...or the Church of Satan...come on now this is America....Intelligent design is not scientific...believing in God is not scientific...they don't call it faith because it's easy to believe or easily provable. Comparing science and religions is the best example I can think of for the apples and oranges adage.
However this works both ways....no one should ever start carping on churches about what they teach or how they teach it....beliefs are just that and people should leave the churches alone.
1,837 posted on 02/24/2006 1:32:51 AM PST by stlouisgirl777
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To: stlouisgirl777

I was going to pick your post apart but then your last paragraph stopped me. Since you have your head on straight, I'll leave you alone to learn. And hopefully, your professor will do a better job explaining the fossil record to you in the future.

Good luck!


1,838 posted on 02/24/2006 3:14:32 AM PST by whattajoke
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To: dread78645
Sad, but true.

Hello?

What 'reason'?

1,839 posted on 02/24/2006 4:01:44 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: donh
I could easily show it's accuracy in a court of law...

Ha!

You can't even show it HERE as I have post quitely plainly ALL of your rant about me!


....just an obnoxious repeat of the original slander.

Indeed!


1,840 posted on 02/24/2006 4:03:53 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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