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Intelligent Design case decided - Dover, Pennsylvania, School Board loses [Fox News Alert]
Fox News | 12/20/05

Posted on 12/20/2005 7:54:38 AM PST by snarks_when_bored

Fox News alert a few minutes ago says the Dover School Board lost their bid to have Intelligent Design introduced into high school biology classes. The federal judge ruled that their case was based on the premise that Darwin's Theory of Evolution was incompatible with religion, and that this premise is false.


TOPICS: Heated Discussion
KEYWORDS: biology; creation; crevolist; dover; education; evolution; intelligentdesign; keywordpolice; ruling; scienceeducation
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To: Lurking Libertarian

[...God is who created us. Evolution is how he did it...]

I believe there is NO GAP between Gen 1:1 and 1:2.

"I declared the former things long ago and they went
forth from My mouth, and I proclaimed them......
SUDDENLY I acted, and they came to pass." Isaiah 48:3.


1,301 posted on 12/20/2005 4:11:01 PM PST by Jo Nuvark (Those who bless Israel will be blessed, those who curse Israel will be cursed. Gen 12:3)
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To: narby

The problem is that the selections you've mentioned have had nothing to do with the genetic code of the plants that you've mentioned.

A tree is still a tree. Johnson grass is still Johnson grass. Etc.


1,302 posted on 12/20/2005 4:11:56 PM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
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To: Recovering_Democrat

I disagree wholeheartedly with your endorsement of a federal court to make a local decision.

I wholeheartedly agree in principle. However, there can be disagreements on what is and is not a local decision.

1,303 posted on 12/20/2005 4:12:55 PM PST by ml1954 (NOT the disruptive troll seen frequently on CREVO threads)
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To: jennyp; Antonello

Haven't bee ntrying to avoid this thread. Been busy.

It's pretty obvious that the plaintiffs got everything they wanted in this case. I think the judge is wrong, but he made the ruling he made.

Since there will likely be no appeal given the current composition of the school board, the only party bound by this decision is the Dover School Board. Contrary to some news reports, this decision is not binding on the other judges in the US District Court.

The case that should draw our attention next is the upcoming decision in the 11th Circuit in the Cobb County School Board case. Based on reports of oral arguments, it seems likely the 11th circuit will likely be the opposite in a similar case.

I will try to get around to reading the entire decision in the next day or two, and then will make some comments.

Please keep in mind that I do not avoid threads simply beccause I may not like or agree the the decision of a judge. As you may or may not recall, I was in favor of a perjury prosecution for those defendants who committed perjury in their depositions. It was foolish of them to do so and I stated that it would not help their case; and in fact, hurt it. that certainly seems to be the case.


1,304 posted on 12/20/2005 4:13:22 PM PST by connectthedots
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To: benjibrowder
Is it just me or is this getting pointless and ridiculous? It also seems that every single evolution thread posted on the FreeRepublic becomes a bloodfest between the Pro-I.D. and the Evolutionists. Can't we just get over this? I'm sure there are a ton of other articles that can be read.

This thread should be about federalists vs anti-federalists. Nanny state vs local control. Brown boots vs Constitutional roots.

There, that should stir it up.

1,305 posted on 12/20/2005 4:13:27 PM PST by jwalsh07
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To: Alter Kaker
"Teach creation in sunday school, not science class."

Intelligent Design is not creationism. Do you know the difference? I doubt it. Are you familiar with holes in Darwin's Theory? Don't think so. Do you know what the proposed curriculum change was in the science classes at Dover? Don't think so.
1,306 posted on 12/20/2005 4:13:44 PM PST by Ceewrighter (O'er the land of the free and the Home of the brave!)
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To: narby

You are imposing climate as the only selection taking place. You have yet to change a single strand of DNA.

And you haven't accounted for someone getting killed when a meteor accidentally hits them in the head. (Which still doesn't change any DNA.)

I want to see natural selection that changes DNA. The things you're talking about already exist.


1,307 posted on 12/20/2005 4:14:36 PM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
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To: thomaswest

The whole EVO crowd believe in a flawed ideology that has no scientific credentials...and all those who have subscribed to it over the years are flawed.

no adequate explanation for the origin of life from dead chemicals

no transitional forms

frauds

The simplest cells are not more primitive than, or ancestral of, larger ones.

Big problem for evos ---that is why they struggle so hard...and in vain.


1,308 posted on 12/20/2005 4:15:57 PM PST by eleni121 ('Thou hast conquered, O Galilean!' (Julian the Apostate))
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To: xzins
A tree is still a tree. Johnson grass is still Johnson grass. Etc.

After one generation, yes. But after enough generations, no.

The "kind" argument of creationists has never proposed a mechanism for why evolution should stop at some point. There is no "micro" vs. "macro" evolution. It is one process, that continues for as long as life lives.

Speciation occurs when some phenomena (a river, whatever) causes two separate populations to form, and one goes in one direction, and the other in another, and eventually they can no longer successfully reproduce and become separate species. This is because the two populations to not swap DNA and thus maintain a coherent species distinction any longer.

1,309 posted on 12/20/2005 4:17:35 PM PST by narby (Hillary! The Wicked Witch of the Left)
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To: jwalsh07

Its what it should be, but it isn't.:-(


1,310 posted on 12/20/2005 4:18:26 PM PST by benjibrowder (The government (at all levels) should not be involved in the education business.)
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To: jbloedow
"Let me get this straight: you're whole point was based on some sort of hyper-pedantic reading of my original post because I didn't say "almost every"?

Not only did you not say almost every, you said every. And when I challenged you, you repeated the claim.

"You'll notice that the point is independent of the precise percentage of individuals involved: you know, it may have been 90%, maybe 95, maybe 98.2%. I'm not quite sure."

Those are very high numbers too; where is your evidence? I don't just mean socialist, or left-wing, I mean Marxist.

" This sort of pedantic silliness is a complete red herring."

The red herring was your bringing up how many people believed a certain theory. It has nothing to do with the veracity of evolution.

"The original argument was that Marx, Freud, and Darwin were embraced by very much the same types of people at about the same time for very much the same reason, in very much the same way."

And this is clearly wrong. Darwin is accepted because of the overwhelming evidence. Common descent is a fact, and the ToE is the best explanation for the diversity of life we see.

Your argument is that since two hypotheses that were once widely held to be true are now discredited, evolution can have the same thing happen to it. While technically true, it's a meaningless analogy. You can say that about ANY theory in science. They are ALL tentative. That doesn't mean we can't have any confidence in their validity. Knowledge can and does get better. Science CAN advance. Some ideas ARE better supported than others.
1,311 posted on 12/20/2005 4:18:47 PM PST by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is a grandeur in this view of life...")
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To: Ol' Dan Tucker

"It is unreasonable to believe in creationism without any evidence to support that theory."

I guess my evidence is that there is no explanation for how the universe came into being apart from a creator.


1,312 posted on 12/20/2005 4:19:05 PM PST by laxin4him (They will know by our love not our picket lines)
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To: Coyoteman

Darwin believed that the fossil record would reveal thousands or millions of life forms which would demonstrate a gradual change from one kind to another (called transitional forms)
But the fossil record has been against the Darwinian theory from the very beginning. It's true that different kinds of organisms lived on the earth at different times. But what is not seen in the fossil record is the steady progressive change of one kind of thing into something completely different.Instead,if something new shows up in the rocks, it shows up all at once and fully formed, and then it stays the same.
If evolution means the steady progressive change of one kind of living thing into something completely different, then the fossil record contradicts evolution.
Given the absence of transitional forms in the fossil record, evolutionists quietly acknowledge this is still a "research issue".
There is virtually nothing in the fossil record that can be used as evidence of a transitional life form when apparent examples of useful mutations are examined thoroughly, it becomes clear that no transitional creatures exist anywhere in the fossil record.
John Bonner, a biologist at Princeton, writes that traditional textbook discussions of ancestral descent are "a festering mass of unsupported assertions." In recent years, paleontologists have retreated from simple connect-the-dot scenarios linking earlier and later species. Instead of ladders, they now talk of bushes. What we see in the fossils, according to this view, are only the twigs, the final end-products of evolution, while the key transitional forms which would give a clue about the origin of major animal groups remain completely hidden.
The blank spots on evolutionary "tree" charts occur at just the points where, according to Darwin's theory, the crucial changes had to take place. The direct ancestors of all the major orders: primates, carnivores, and so forth are completely missing. There is no fossil evidence for a "grandparent" of the monkey, for example. "Modern gorillas, orangutans, and chimpanzees spring out of nowhere," writes paleontologist Donald Johansen. "They are here today; they have no yesterday." The same is true of giraffes, elephants, wolves, and all species; they all simply burst upon the scene de novo [anew], as it were.
So many questions arise in the study of fossils (paleontology) that even many evolutionary paleontologists put little stock in the fossil record. Basing one's belief in evolution on the shaky ground of paleontology can scarcely be considered scientific.


1,313 posted on 12/20/2005 4:19:16 PM PST by em2vn
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To: saganite
That's what the separation of church and state is all about, not teaching religious "theories" in science class."

I doubt you know what is behind the fancy phrase "seperation of church and state." It's meant not to create a state sponsored religion on a national level. State's could do whatever they decide.

And, I highly doubt you are familiar with what the exact proposed changes were to the Dover High School science curriculum. It was not a teaching of Intelligent Design at all. If it was, tell me what you think constitutes teaching a curriculum.
1,314 posted on 12/20/2005 4:20:02 PM PST by Ceewrighter (O'er the land of the free and the Home of the brave!)
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To: eleni121

Still here, still bring no evidence for any of the assertions you've made in this thread?


1,315 posted on 12/20/2005 4:21:04 PM PST by Canard
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To: laxin4him

"I guess my evidence is that there is no explanation for how the universe came into being apart from a creator."

What's that got to do with evolution?


1,316 posted on 12/20/2005 4:21:55 PM PST by Canard
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To: xzins

"I want to see natural selection that changes DNA. The things you're talking about already exist."

The change, properly speaking, is in the allele frequencies of populations. The environment will most certainly change which alleles survive, and which perish. Allele changes are by definition changes in the DNA.


1,317 posted on 12/20/2005 4:22:45 PM PST by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is a grandeur in this view of life...")
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To: staytrue
Creationism does not belong in science class, but go easy on those people who are unfamiliar with very large numbers who can not make the leap of faith that is required to believe in evolution.

Any very large numbers are generated from strawman models. If I fail to go easy on people who cling to absurd, strawman models, it's no injustice. Remaining militantly ignorant of evolution while railing about how silly it is does not exactly qualifiy as science.

1,318 posted on 12/20/2005 4:23:14 PM PST by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: snarks_when_bored

Yes, God created federal judges too!


1,319 posted on 12/20/2005 4:23:22 PM PST by RightWinger
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To: narby

It's a DNA argument....not a kind argument.

You've gotta show some changed DNA & you've got to measure the amount of time it took to accomplish that change.

Where is that in the literature?


1,320 posted on 12/20/2005 4:23:47 PM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
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