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Bush supports 'intelligent design'
MyrtleBeach Online ^ | 02 August 2005 | Ron Hutcheson

Posted on 08/02/2005 4:16:26 AM PDT by PatrickHenry

President Bush waded into the debate over evolution and "intelligent design" Monday, saying schools should teach both theories on the creation and complexity of life.

In a wide-ranging question-and-answer session with a small group of reporters, Bush essentially endorsed efforts by Christian conservatives to give intelligent design equal standing with the theory of evolution in the nation's schools.

Bush declined to state his personal views on "intelligent design," the belief that life forms are so complex that their creation cannot be explained by Darwinian evolutionary theory alone, but rather points to intentional creation, presumably divine.

The theory of evolution, first articulated by British naturalist Charles Darwin in 1859, is based on the idea that life organisms developed over time through random mutations and factors in nature that favored certain traits that helped species survive.

Scientists concede that evolution does not answer every question about the creation of life, and most consider intelligent design an attempt to inject religion into science courses.

Bush compared the current debate to earlier disputes over "creationism," a related view that adheres more closely to biblical explanations. While he was governor of Texas, Bush said students should be exposed to both creationism and evolution.

On Monday, the president said he favors the same approach for intelligent design "so people can understand what the debate is about."

The Kansas Board of Education is considering changes to encourage the teaching of intelligent design in Kansas schools, and some are pushing for similar changes across the country.

"I think that part of education is to expose people to different schools of thought," Bush said. "You're asking me whether or not people ought to be exposed to different ideas. The answer is 'yes.'"

The National Academy of Sciences and the American Association for the Advancement of Science both have concluded there is no scientific basis for intelligent design and oppose its inclusion in school science classes. [Note from PH: links relevant to those organizations and their positions on ID are added by me at the end of this article.]

Some scientists have declined to join the debate, fearing that amplifying the discussion only gives intelligent design more legitimacy.

Advocates of intelligent design also claim support from scientists. The Discovery Institute, a conservative think tank in Seattle that is the leading proponent for intelligent design, said it has compiled a list of more than 400 scientists, including 70 biologists, who are skeptical about evolution.

"The fact is that a significant number of scientists are extremely skeptical that Darwinian evolution can explain the origins of life," said John West, associate director of the organization's Center for Science and Culture.


[Links inserted by PH:]
Letter from Bruce Alberts on March 4, 2005. President of the National Academy of Sciences.
AAAS Board Resolution on Intelligent Design Theory.
Statements from Scientific and Scholarly Organizations. Sixty statements, all supporting evolution.


TOPICS: Heated Discussion
KEYWORDS: bush; bush43; crevolist; darwinisdead; evolution; intelligentdesign; science; scienceeducation
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To: mlc9852
I would be interested in anyone's interpretation of how the Bible says slavery is okay. Any takers?

Google "Paul Titus Slavery" ... I'm surprised that you are unaware of this. Paul said that slaves should not rebel against their masters and that was seen in the bible belt as Paul's endorsement of slavery. Of course now, Christians claim that it was a ludicrous way of looking at it.

The point is that the bible is not as straightforward at it seems. What may seem very straightforward during on era can be seen as a very silly interpretation in a later era.

281 posted on 08/02/2005 8:40:27 AM PDT by JeffAtlanta
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To: Rudder

"I don't believe it...Bush can't be that stupid, can he?"

Yes.


282 posted on 08/02/2005 8:41:01 AM PDT by doc
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To: Asphalt

You know, it's just common netiquette to ping someone to a post where he is mentioned, even in passing.


283 posted on 08/02/2005 8:42:30 AM PDT by Junior (Just because the voices in your head tell you to do things doesn't mean you have to listen to them)
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To: PatrickHenry

Actually, in all likelihood if the evolution vs. ID issue becomes prominent in the next presidential election, the GOP candidate will endorse allowing ID to be taught in science classes and 'Rat candidate Hillary Clinton will do so as well. Certainly Hillary is a devout evolutionist but as part of her effort to win red state voters she'll pretend to tolerate the opposing view.


284 posted on 08/02/2005 8:43:15 AM PDT by puroresu (Conservatism is an observation; Liberalism is an ideology)
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To: mlc9852

exodus 2-11, 21 22


285 posted on 08/02/2005 8:43:16 AM PDT by From many - one.
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To: Michael_Michaelangelo
Are you saying those scientists are lying, Jeff?

As it has been discussed for days, some of the scientists state that they have no problem with evolution.

They signed something that something along the lines of "The Theory of Evolution does not completely explain biological life". I'd sign that too, as of course the Theory is not complete - no theory ever is.

Creationsists are using world play to dishonestly represent a position.

286 posted on 08/02/2005 8:44:12 AM PDT by JeffAtlanta
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To: Junior

"And, before you get into a high dudgeon about this lack of acceptance at face value of what claims to be the Word of God (a circular argument if I ever heard one), please note my comments that any interpretation of Scripture I accept must conform to reality."



It's interesting to me to consider what our reaction today would be if an old man walked down from a mountain holding tablets and proclaiming to have talked to God via a burning bush. Would he be revered as a modern-day Moses or committed to a mental hospital?

Would anyone believe someone proclaiming to be the Son of God...or think that person was insane?

I'm not sure what I'd think...but I'm pretty sure what 'society' would think.


287 posted on 08/02/2005 8:44:35 AM PDT by Blzbba (For a man who does not know to which port he is sailing, no wind is favorable - Seneca)
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To: RightWingAtheist
But I'm wondering about what the President actually said. We only get two very brief quotes from him, and we need to read his statements in full and in context to understand what he actually meant.

You and me both. However, you know how the MSM will spin this.

288 posted on 08/02/2005 8:44:51 AM PDT by RadioAstronomer (Senior member of Darwin Central)
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To: RadioAstronomer

And what is driving it is cold, naked FEAR.


289 posted on 08/02/2005 8:45:28 AM PDT by furball4paws (One of the last Evil Geniuses, or the first of their return.)
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To: trebb

Here is a good place to start. :-)

http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/cosmolog.htm


290 posted on 08/02/2005 8:45:50 AM PDT by RadioAstronomer (Senior member of Darwin Central)
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To: JeffAtlanta

I am well aware of what Paul said and I also don't think he was endorsing slavery. You are saying that people's interpretation changes. The facts of the Bible haven't changed. Each is free to interpret as they wish. However, that doesn't change what God said or meant.


291 posted on 08/02/2005 8:46:05 AM PDT by mlc9852
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To: ohioWfan
Are only science profs capable of commenting on the state of University education, and the leftist elites who OWN it? What kind of 'right winger' are you anyway, that you don't know what's going on in higher education these days?

No. Anyone may comment on the state of education. However, people who work in the sciences and in the educational industry should be considered more authoritative that some random person.

Furthermore, your post betrays prejudice against the the educational and scientific professions. All teachers are not necessarily Democrats, neither are all scientists all atheists. Many people on these thread have gone to great lengths to demonstrate that there is conservative and/or Republican support and agreement with mainstream evolutionary theory. There are many people working in the sciences today who have faith and at the same time understand what evolutionary theory means and support it, as well. Many people who work in the sciences would be Republicans except for the public perception (mistaken, I believe) that conservatism is hostile to science. Unfortunately, the president has given ammunition to those people who want to protray conservatives and or Republicans as hostile and ignorant of science.

The operative word being MOST. So the debate is not legitimate to you because there aren't enough scientists on the other side? Interesting POV on a conservative forum.........that the minority is necessarily wrong and should be silenced....

I believe that 'most' is too weak a qualifier. I believe it is more correct to say that the vast majority of scientists disagree without. Science has room for disagreement, your petty carping that the 'minority should be silenced' not withstanding.

However, basic science class is not the place to have this debate. Basic science classes should teach the predominant theory. I say this for two reasons.

First, there is simply not enough time in the school year devoted to science education to cover every possible minority scientific theory that exists the life and earth sciences. While there are controversies within evolutionary theory, the modern synthesis theory (comprised of Darwin's theory of natural selection, Mendel's theory of inheritance, and subsequent theories of molecular biology that have arisen since the discovery and description of the DNA molecule by Watson, Crick, Wilkins, Franklin, and others) the modern synthesis theory itself is not especially controversial. Evolutionary theory should not be singled out for special treatment. If basic science education must 'teach the controversy' regarding evolution this opens a can of worms for all science education to be diluted by digressions from all over the map. Children already spend far too little time in science class. There are limited resources and teaching every controversial subject would leave no time for teaching the basics. Though one would not get the impression from reading these threads, evolutionary theory is basic science. If there is a place for a debate on the merits of evolutioniary theory versus creationism, it belongs in philosophy class, not science class. Science curriculum should be geared towards the dominant paradigm.

Second, the public school system is largely geared towards college prep. If the purpose if to prepare children for university, then science education must teach those concepts to which students will be exposed when they go on to higher education. Students going into the sciences, especially the life sciences, are going to need a good foundation in evolutionary theory because evolutionary theory is foundational to our understanding of biology. As I said above, evolutionary theory is not especially controversial in the sciences. To the contrary, evolutionary theory is one of the most well-supported theories by virtue of the amount of physical evidence as well as experimental support. Evolutionary theory is what students are going to be taught when they get to university, therefore it stands to reasons that college prepartory schools should direct their curriculum accordingly.

I believe in actually educating youth, and you mock it.

This is bunk. These threads suck. Posts like yours is one of the reasons they suck.

292 posted on 08/02/2005 8:46:11 AM PDT by Liberal Classic (No better friend, no worse enemy. Semper Fi.)
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To: Doctor Stochastic
They are all low-tax, pro-second-amendment, small-government types; they generally support things like the War On Terror but they will never vote GOP because the GOP is seen as the Stupid Party.

Yup academia is a hot bed of "low tax, pro second-amendment, small government types" in one of the parallel universes. Which one are you in?

293 posted on 08/02/2005 8:46:21 AM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: JeffAtlanta

Yeah, all creationists are dishonest.


294 posted on 08/02/2005 8:46:39 AM PDT by mlc9852
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To: mlc9852

"I interpret the Bible by what it says. Most of it is pretty straightforward."

This is the essence of Biblical faith. You are dead right. This is what the Reformers were after at the end of the day.

Believing the Bible is not necessary for salvation, according to the Bible itself ("believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, that He was the Son of God, and rose again, and you will be saved"). But if you desire to grow and to have intellectual and spiritual integrity, this is the starting point and the end point. And somewhere along the way, you have to say, "to hell with evolution" and everything else that is contradicted by Scripture. Not everyone can handle that.


295 posted on 08/02/2005 8:47:16 AM PDT by ConservativeDude
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To: furball4paws

Absolutely! This is no different than the struggle over heliocentrism a few centuries back.


296 posted on 08/02/2005 8:47:44 AM PDT by RadioAstronomer (Senior member of Darwin Central)
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To: mlc9852
Yeah, all creationists are dishonest.

No, most are sincerely, but wilfully, ignorant.

297 posted on 08/02/2005 8:47:53 AM PDT by Alter Kaker (Whatever tears one may shed, in the end one always blows one’s nose.-Heine)
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To: mlc9852

I'm glad to see you admit that you think President Bush was "promoting creationism"

I don't think he was. I think he had poor science advice as to whether creation or "ID" contains material appropriate for a -science- class.

But the subject was whether you respond to my posts.


298 posted on 08/02/2005 8:49:55 AM PDT by From many - one.
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To: mlc9852
Yeah, all creationists are dishonest.

I didn't say that in my post. I said that the Creationist pushing that list as a mainstream revolution against the Theory of Evolution is dishonest and most are intelligent enough to realize what they are doing is wrong. Somehow lying for God is ok.

299 posted on 08/02/2005 8:49:58 AM PDT by JeffAtlanta
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To: TonyRo76
"Not to worry; they print new ones when the story changes every 5-10 years anyway. Remember Piltdown Man, Eugenics, "Ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny" and all that other discarded cr@p?"

LOL...Yeah, and don't forget the "impending Ice Age" that we were warned about as children in the 1970s! Yes, the Enviro-authoritarians were "scientifically proving" that this was a certainty, so they preached the same type of godless doom, gloom, and alarmist tomfoolery back then, as well. It was the "same," only "different"! LOL...

300 posted on 08/02/2005 8:50:40 AM PDT by NH Liberty ("For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus..." [1 Timothy 2:5])
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