Posted on 01/21/2005 6:34:28 AM PST by P-Marlowe
But you just did ... here is what you said.. .
Without grace and mercy, we would never be able to approach our Father in Heaven. It is by God's grace and His mercy that He provides us a way to come to Him.
So you have said that you are not saved by grace and mercy, you only have an opportunity to earn it with your deeds. So you do "argue" with the bible
However,
There is not HOWEVER in the bible that is YOUR word, not Gods
that does not mean that we have no responsibility to submit to God. If that were the case, then there would be universal salvation and no one would go to Hell. However, the Bible is clear that this is not the case(Matthew 7:14).
So the false choices you have set up are "universalism" or a salvation by your good deed , your obedience to the law.
Neither is taught in the Bible, in fact we are told quite clearly we are SAVED by grace and mercy
Would you please define for me grace and what is mercy?
Whether he resists or not, he has not "ears to hear" unless his Dead Spirit is first Quickened unto Spiritual Life.
The Rich Young Ruler went forward at the "Altar Call", just like the Philippian Jailer. But he was not given a Heart of True Repentance, by God; the Philippian Jailer was.
In other words, Man's Repentance is totally God's Decision.
I already said that No Good Works can "earn" Salvation, so the "Work of Faith" is not an Earnful Work; you've already admitted that True Faith involves a Work of Will (any "action" is a "work", period; the terms are perfect synonyms); we're going in circles.
So, like it or not, I'm going to take it back to Spiritual Death.
The Bible teaches that while a Man is yet Spiritually Dead, he WILL NEVER "choose God".
Here the Bible stands, I will not recant.
All I said was that if we are saved by Grace, which the Bible teaches, but not everyone will be saved, which the Bible also teaches, then there must be something other than Grace involved. Is that hard for you to understand? It isn't hard for me.
Why?
Define Grace and Mercy for me
Because the Word of God is truth, and if grace saves, but not everyone is saved, then the definition of grace must be more than just God's unconditional benevolence to us. I Peter 5:5 says that God bestows his grace on those who are humble, not everyone.
Ooooooo, doggy. You guys have sure confused me.
Just one question Buggman. If "faith is a gift" like you're saying, and faith "comes from hearing the Word of God", then it would seem to me that anyone who heard the Word of God would receive the gift of faith. However, there are many people who not only hear the Word of God but revile it. They have no faith. Could you please clarify?
A dead man cannot choose righteously. A dead man's choices are all his own -- stubbornly error-filled and God-denying.
Only after God has given a man a new birth and a new heart can man ever look heavenward for his salvation. The neck is permanently bent toward earth unless and until God uprights him.
I've asked arminians before. Why do you think Jesus chose Lazarus to raise? Why not some sick and dying man? Why a DEAD MAN?
~~~"Now a certain [man] was sick, [named] Lazarus, of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha.2 (It was [that] Mary which anointed the Lord with ointment, and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick. )3 Therefore his sisters sent unto him, saying, Lord, behold, he whom thou lovest is sick.4 When Jesus heard [that], he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.5 Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus.6 When he had heard therefore that he was sick, he abode two days still in the same place where he was.7 Then after that saith he to [his] disciples, Let us go into Judaea again.8 [His] disciples say unto him, Master, the Jews of late sought to stone thee; and goest thou thither again?9 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.10 But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.16 Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto his fellowdisciples, Let us also go, that we may die with him.
17 Then when Jesus came, he found that he had [lain] in the grave four days already.18 Now Bethany was nigh unto Jerusalem, about fifteen furlongs off:19 And many of the Jews came to Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning their brother.20 Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met him: but Mary sat [still] in the house.21 Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give [it] thee.23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.28 And when she had so said, she went her way, and called Mary her sister secretly, saying, The Master is come, and calleth for thee.29 As soon as she heard [that], she arose quickly, and came unto him.30 Now Jesus was not yet come into the town, but was in that place where Martha met him.31 The Jews then which were with her in the house, and comforted her, when they saw Mary, that she rose up hastily and went out, followed her, saying, She goeth unto the grave to weep there.32 Then when Mary was come where Jesus was, and saw him, she fell down at his feet, saying unto him, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
33 When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled,34 And said, Where have ye laid him? They said unto him, Lord, come and see.35 Jesus wept.36 Then said the Jews, Behold how he loved him!37 And some of them said, Could not this man, which opened the eyes of the blind, have caused that even this man should not have died?38 Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it.39 Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been [dead] four days.40 Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?41 Then they took away the stone [from the place] where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up [his] eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said [it], that they may believe that thou hast sent me.43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go." -- John 11:1-45.~~~~
So, what do we have here? We have that Jesus first loved Lazarus who was dead four days. We have the disciples and Martha saying if Jesus had gotten there sooner, Lazarus would not have died. We have Jesus saying, "No way, Jose, I'm about to show you that the ONLY way you live again is BY the hand of God alone THROUGH belief that Christ is Lord.
(Not to mention the quick insertion that he who walks in the light finds the way home, but he who walks in darkness stumbles "because there is no light in him." And all light is given by God alone.)
To continue, we then have Jesus praying to God, thanking Him for resurrecting Lazarus, but adding this telling line, "Pardon me, Father, for phrasing things like I did, BUT I NEEDED TO USE WORDS IN ORDER FOR THEM TO UNDERSTAND WHAT WAS HAPPENING" -- (ergo Scripture).
Christ did not tell Lazarus "to believe and you will be saved." He lifted his rotting, stinking flesh and gave him life again -- by His hand alone.
You missed the second best part of the story, ftd.
Back up for a second. Where did I say faith is a gift?
OP, you can repeat that refrain all you want, but however you want to twist and distort the issue (and with all respect, that's precisely what you are doing), the Bible still says that faith, the "act" of trusting God, is not a work in the sense that you are trying to define it. You are not actually citing any Scripture in your side, nor are you addressing the Scripture that has been cited by mine--you are doing the debate equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting a mantra at the top of your lungs.
Candidly, that's not typical behavior for you.
Whether he resists or not, he has not "ears to hear" unless his Dead Spirit is first Quickened unto Spiritual Life.
You still haven't answered or conceded the issue that we were already debating, so why should I bother debating this point with you?
Let us all remember that line.
According to Buggman, man is saved by his own choice to trust God.
So God's greatest gift, the redeeming sacrifice of His Son, ordained by God from before the foundation of the world, is completely dependent upon man's decision to choose wisely. And thus man is saved through some innate ability within himself to make the right decision.
That is gnosticism, whether you know it or not.
DrE said that Bugman said one is born in the Spirit by choosing to trust in God and followed by saying that Buggman said that "man is saved by his own choice."
What a distortion!
No, man is saved by God's free gift. But man is not compelled to trust God and take that gift--anyone can turn it down if they so choose.
You know, it's getting to the point where I can't find too many Calvinists on this forum who doesn't feel compelled to distort the opposition's position, build strawmen, bait with veiled (and not-so-veiled) insults, and otherwise do everything except for debate and discuss the Bible honestly and fairly. That isn't doing much to represent Calvinism well.
I took your post in 860 to mean that you believed faith to be a gift. You highlighted the following:
”For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. (Eph. 2:8-9)
By highlighting “through faith” and “not of works" you imply that faith is not a work. But the “not” refers back to “it is the gift of God” as well. So proper interpretation of the sentence of what you have highlighted would be “…through faith, …it is the gift of God, not of works…”
Another interpretation as to what the “gift of God” is would be:
For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. (Eph. 2:8-9)
This, of course gives a completely different meaning. Paul contrast the gift of God against what is not a work. So the question becomes what is the gift of God?
You don't receive faith by being baptized, faith comes before baptism, as does repentance and confession.
Also, since you have yet to show me a translation of Acts 2:38 that renders it "because of the remission of your sins", I will take that to mean there is not one, correct?
The exegetical flimsiness of using this passage [Eph. 2:8-9] in this way should be common knowledge. Apparently it is not. Chrysostom, Theodoret, Theophylact, Calvin, Calovius, Olshausen, Meyer, Chandler, Adam Clarke, Ellicot, Alford, Salmond in EGT, Eadie, Vincent, A. T. Robertson, Wuest, F. F. Bruce (“an impenitent Augustinian and Calvinist”), and even extreme Calvinist Homer Hoeksema are among the host who reject such isogesis since they recognized that the relative pronoun touto (this) is neuter and pistis (faith) is feminine and cannot serve as its antecedent. Although Calvin doesn’t explain the grammar, he is very explicit about this error:So we're back to where we were before: Faith, trusting God, is neither a work, nor is it a gift from God, but rather a response to God offering the gift of salvation.And here we must advert to a very common error in the interpretation of this passage. Many persons restrict the word gift to faith alone. But Paul is only repeating in other words the former sentiment. His meaning is, not that faith is the gift of God, but that salvation is given to us by God, or, that we obtain it by the gift of God. (emphasis Olsen’s)(Olsen, Gordon C., Beyond Calvinism and Arminianism: An Inductive Mediate Theology of Salvation, p. 221)
I think I have answered this a number of times now. God draws you, changes you, you confess your sins, you head off doing good works (including being baptized). "If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." That includes well before being baptized. There is nothing hard to figure out in this scenario nor are there any "special cases" that God has to figure out.
It is a common practice of many of the Arminians to have "special circumstances" by which God saves people. I noticed this in your response to rnmomof7 and what would happen to people who a train runs over on the way to the baptizmo. In my mind these "special circumstances" represent a fundamental flaw in people soteriology which many don't wish to admit. God saves everyone in exactly the same way. Even those who don't have water available to "wash away their sins".
BTW-Do babies go to heaven if they're not baptized?
You have answered the question exactly ZERO times. Until you answer it, this discussion is on hold. I will ask it one more time.
Since you are so convinced that the Greek means "because of remission of sins" in Acts 2:38, there must be at least one translation of the Bible that renders it that way, correct? Otherwise, the many people that have worked on the many translations of the Bible are convinced that the Greek does not call for such a translation.
Ooooooo, a trap! I should have saw it coming.
I'm not saying your incorrect but you may wish to check your list of references. Just a quick perusal of your list I see a number of Pelegians and, in some cases, officially deemed heretics (Chrysostom). I don't think this is an objective crowd as you may feel.
But I'm off now. I'll try to look into this matter soon.
Are you avoiding my question?
Define Grace and mercy..
Also why is it one or the other? Can God not have mercy on whom he will have mercy? Why is it all or nothing?
So back to square 1
What is Grace and what is Mercy .
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