VANITY - Gross or Net? If you tithe - on which do you tithe?

5/23/2003 | Frapster

[Frapster]

Pardon the vanity folks but my wife and I were debating an issue about tithing. We are both committed Christians but we were debating whether it was correct to tithe on the gross or the net? And not just in terms of personal income but in terms of a business. If we own a company that is grossing a certain amount do we tithe on the gross of that amount or the net (what we pay ourselves?)

[em2vn]

The new covenant is only because of Jesus Christ, not of anything that man has done. I didn't thrown it out, Christ threw it out when he came to fulfill the law. The law and its requirements died on the cross with Jesus Christ. Tithing was part of the burden of the law. Christ is the total liberation from all aspects of the law.
Give in whatever fashion you desire but don't proclaim it as a requirement of the teachings of Christ. It simply isn't.

[TWRepublican]

the tithe is 10% of your personal gross income. anything above that is an offering. I have a small construction business and i tithe on all that is left after materials are paid for. May the Lord Bless you richly.

[VaBthang4]

Gross.

Your taxes pay for things that benefit you directly & indirectly and therefore would be "increase".

We are to tithe from our gross.

[kitkat]

Very good explanation of tithing, 3Lean. Also, I was taught by the nuns in Catholic school that in Biblical times, tithing was done with the following in mind:

If a man died, his widow was provided for; in case of illness, the church paid; orphans were taken care of.

So, we were taught that tithing was no longer expected.

[longtermmemmory]

I figure you tithe the net.

The tax part was never really yours, it belongs to the governemnt. (sarcasm on/off)

Give unto ceasar and all that...

[VaBthang4]

"I feel...

You probably would've caught yourself right there had you any idea what type of principles we are talking about.

Lose the "feeling" and obey God.

[Frapster]

wow! Excellent points. Thanks for your feedback.

[Robert_Paulson2]

Scripture says:
to use as a basis for giving "firstfruit of all your INCREASE."

If you invest $30 and get $35 back, you don't pay on the 35, you pay on the five that represented your increase.

This is the basis of income AFTER expenses.
A friend I know won $3500 for a prize heifer.
He spent $3000 to raise it, the difference... of five hundred was the actual INCREASE. Had he paid a tithe on the prize, it would have eaten up almost all his profit. AS it was, he made $500 and a strict application of the tithe based on the law of increase... would have been $50, enabling him to raise another heifer and perpetuate both the income AND the giving he did. THAT is how it is supposed to work... except in the minds of greedy clergy.

Taxes are part of the EXPENSE, or COST of working in America.
They are extracted at gunpoint via the aegis of the IRS.
Taxes you pay on your income are not part of your INCREASE, but part of your expenses.
In fact, a portion of our taxes are by law, supposed to go, to helping the poor, widows, orphans and "strangers" aka (homeless immigrants) via our welfare system... this USED to be the church's venue, which they have largely given up for the pursuit of gaining massive wealth for the "non profit corporation" they are constantly building.

God, if he demands anything of you via the old testament Scriptures, asks only for a percentage of your INCREASE.

If a corn crop cost you 10 gs to plant and reap... and you sold the crop for 10,500...
then you made only 500 dollars, but if you paid tithes on the gross receipts at the grain elevator... you would actually be paying $1500... which would eat up ALL of your increase, AND about 1000 dollars of your "seed money".
Tithing is NOT a gross receipts tax!
God never intended for us to lose money or means by obeying his designs.
THAT is why HE said tithes and offerings are to be based on your INCREASE.

A better way to look at it is to examine the "INCREASE" in your net worth and Income AFTER taxes... are giving some of your home "sweat equity" to help others? To secure your family, perhaps even neices and nephews in dealing with their financial need?

Ultimately, GOD does not need your money. HIS streets iin His cities, are said to be solid gold. The invitation to Tithe is not for "blessing" God. It's for OUR benefit. IE... organizations of good men and women, who serve US and our fellow man... are supposed to use the gifts we choose to offer, to bless and help US and others who need assistance HERE.

FWIW... folks fight about this all the time.. usually GREEDY clergy. God says give based on what you have, not according to what you dont' have... so I suggest you take a look at how and where YOU have INCREASED... and if the local clergy sounds greedy... take their portion and give it to someone you can trust to use it rightly.

When we see questions about the tithe, we are almost always talking about exclusively "money"... and this is how phony clergy exposes themselves by focusing on $$$. INCREASES on which we can tithe go WAY beyond money...

EVERY day God gives you another 24 hours. 16 of them waking and technically an INCREASE, 8 of the 24 are eating and sleeping EXPENSE. How many of those 16 hours of your time is that clergy demanding you use to help others, feed the poor, take care of the spiritual needs in your community? OR do they focus on dollars all the time?!?

Say you don't have the cash... God will take you up on the 1.6 hours a day of your time! Which is probably more important to him than the cash. But beware. If everybody did 1.6 hours a day of serving, helping and building the wealth of others, materially, spiritually, physically... your greedy clergy members... might just be out of a job.

Of course you have to follow the rules of the orgs you are member to... but a good tool of discernment is to consider; do they only want a tithe of your money and property... or do they freely admit that God is just as interested in gaining access to your TIME, relationships and station in life?

Everybody knows, your Time is money. Most people get money for letting employers use their skills measured by TIME.
Time is your LIFE. If your LIFE is not good enough for your Clergy's bank account with God... perhaps they are not shepherds, but hirelings... who care nothing for the sheep.

Offer to give them 5 hours of service to your fellow man in their name each week... and see if they go for it, or balk. if they balk (I am of the opinion) it's okay to walk.

[Frapster]

It's amazing how many questions of faith can be answered by quoting the Simpsons.

rofl - I once saw a Bible entitled 'The Bible According to Home Simpson'. I was afraid to touch it much less look at it. lol

[Tamar1973]

I didn't thrown it out, Christ threw it out when he came to fulfill the law. The law and its requirements died on the cross with Jesus Christ. Tithing was part of the burden of the law. Christ is the total liberation from all aspects of the law.

Matthew 5:17-19 states, "Do not think that I have come to destroy the law or the prophets. I have not come to destroy but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, till the heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or tittle shall in any way pass from the law until all is fulfilled. Therefore whoever shall break one of these commandments, the least, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. But however shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of Heaven."

Obviously, when Y'shua said,"...until all is fulfilled..." is not a reference to His death and ressurection b/c he prefaces it by "until heaven and earth pass away". The last time I checked, the heavens and earth are still here. Messiah hasn't fulfilled all His duty b/c He hasn't come again yet.

The "problem" with most x-ians is they don't follow the law at all, claiming that lawlessness = grace. Paul said in Romans 6:1-2, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound? Let it not be! how shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?"

For you to say that Y'shua threw out the law, you are calling Him a liar b/c He kept it Himself. The reality of the matter is that w/out the Tanak you would have NO idea what sin even is and why Messiah had to come.

In Acts 15: 19-21 calls on the gentile believers to abstain from idols, fornication, from strangled meat and from blood. They presumed that the gentiles would learn the rest of Torah and gradually apply to their lives as they went to the synogogue every sabbath and heard the Torah read. They never would have presumed that gentile x-ians would continue to live as spiritual babies and eat pork or any other anti-Torah thing for the rest of their lives.

[cpprfld]

Unrealized gains, I wouldn't tithe on, because they aren't offically recongized as gains, unless if you are looking to sell them right away. Realized gains I would tithe on, because it would be considered income.

[safisoft]

On the issue of tithe, there is a lot of misinformation. First, it is highly ironic that evangelical Christianity has taught "tithing" while saying ALL the rest of the Tabernacle/Temple system "were fulfilled in Jesus, and done away with." It brings out the skeptic in many.

Let me first say that I am "Torah-submissive" (which means that when Psalm 119 says that God's people should DELIGHT in the Torah/Law of God, Torah/Law is a GOOD thing that is worthy of DOING) - and I also believe that Jesus DID fulfill all of the Tabernacle/Temple system, but that He encouraged His disciples and hence us to prophetically act out His fulfillments. The First Century followers of Jesus believed this as well (Read Acts 21:20). Being "Torah-submissive" does not mean I believe in works-based salvation - I simply believe that when Jesus said in John 14:10, "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love," that keeping God's Torah was the intended EFFECT of salvation - not the cause.

Now, regarding "tithe", many say, “We should give… at least a tithe.” Yet many of those same people cannot tell you where Scripture commands this. Many people, who would consider the commands of the “Old Testament” passé, might be shocked to learn that there is no command to tithe in the New Testament. This is not to imply that there is no command to tithe – only that often those most likely to deny the authority of the “Old Testament” still cling to some commands that serve their purposes.

“‘Bring all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be food in My house, and try Me now in this,’ says the LORD of hosts, ‘If I will not open for you the windows of heaven and pour out for you such blessing that there will not be room enough to receive it.’” Malachi 3:10

Malachi 3:10, is likely the most quoted passage in pulpits during various “pledging” drives. So where does this command to “tithe” in Malachi come from? The Hebrew word for “tithe” is ma’aser (pronounced: mah-as-ayr). It is spelled mem-ayin-shin-resh. It comes from the root asar which means to make a grouping of ten. Ma’aser is literally “a tenth”. Tithe was mentioned before the Book of Leviticus. Abram paid a tithe to Melchizedek and Jacob promised to pay a tithe at Bethel, but nowhere was it commanded until Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. Read Deuteronomy 12:4-6. Then read Deuteronomy 14:22-27. Now read Deuteronomy 14:28-29 and Deuteronomy 26:12

A careful reading of the commands for tithe will reveal that there is not one tithe, but three. The first tithe was 10% of a landowner’s crops etc. This was to be given to the Levites (they were landless). The second tithe was 10% of a landowner’s crops (or exchanged for money) etc. to be taken to the Tabernacle (or later Temple) to be consumed by the landowner’s family during the three yearly visits to “where God caused His Name to dwell” (Tabernacle/Temple). The third tithe was collected and distributed by a landowner to the alien and the poor every third year out of the seven year cycle. No tithe at all was collected in the seventh (sh’mittah) year. How does this all relate to us today in a time where there is no Temple to go to three times each year and consume the second tithe in what must be characterized as a community celebratory meal? No matter what modern church leaders might say, there is absolutely no correlation between the modern church building or property and the biblical Tabernacle or Temple. To suggest such a thing is an abomination.

How are we to treat the first tithe which was collected to give to the Levites? Certainly, the second tithe is virtually unknown in the evangelical world, and the first tithe is assumed to be collected for “church leadership” as if they were some modern-day Levitical priesthood. But is that what was commanded? Who were Levites? Were they seminary trained and ordained – or were they simply born into the Tribe of Levi?

Ironically, the third tithe (the one every third year for the poor and alien), is the one easiest to apply today, and yet our benevolence is usually collected and distributed by a “tax deductible” entity instead of by the individual as is indicated in Scripture.

In the "Newer Testament" there is ample evidence for giving, but not the "tithe" (that does NOT mean that it went away however - it is just that the mechanism for the first and second tithe (i.e. to the Levites and for the family celebrations in Jerusalem 3 times a year in the Tabernacle/Temple) was not available to the majority of readers of the Epistles - But the 3rd tithe WAS available to the readers (and those living today) - which was giving the poor and alien (NOT to support the Tabernacle/Temple).

Is there any basis for providing for those who teach/preach? Of COURSE - but it is NOT the tithe. 1 Corinthians 9:8-14 gives great insight into using giving to provide for those who teach/preach (not positions, rather people who DID certain things). Note, an ox that does not tread the grain does not eat. It is not "official position" that gets provision - it is workers.

James 1:27 and James 2:15-17 relate to the “third tithe” (for the poor and the alien), which is the focus of giving in the "New Testament" - sadly, the mega-church thinking in America has poluted the thinking of God's people regarding giving.

What is sadly missing today is a clear understanding of God’s intended purpose for our giving. Let’s get something clear: God does not need our money, our crops, or our flocks. The "mega-church" of today is an embarrassment of riches. I grew up in Africa and I know many missionaries, and the constant building programs in America("build the vision, "build the promise," "build the future" should shame us when we look at what missionaries have to deal with.

So, in my opinion, I don't care so much whether "net" or "gross" is used in calculations. I am the one to give (not some tax deductible entity, er, corporation). My FIRST responsiblity is for the poor and alien (since there is no Tabernacle/Temple and no serving Levites to give to). Next, I should be generous in providing funds for "those who teach".

[VaBthang4]

You'd do well not to oversimplify Christians.

"When Christians say that you must literally give 10% of your income every week to their ministry"

The Word says you are to give back 10% of your increase...whether you get "increase" once a week or not is not relavent. Also...your giving is a product of odedience to God not to some ministry. Give it up or dont...eitherway, we answer to God for it.

[MalcolmS]

And how about replacing the days of the week with names of the patriarchs instead of those Norse gods nobody worships any more. And don't get me started on the months ;-).

[tracer]

"Churches have passed the responsibility for the sick, poor, elderly, young, etc. on to government."

Depends on the church to which you refer....

[Ff--150]

You argumentative??? Not billbears :-) Gross or net isn't scriptural IMO. What the Spirit says would be best I suppose. Expect a return whichever He tells you...

[votelife]

I like Oberon's advice:
Two pieces of advice:

1. Don't give out of legalism, but out of your heart to give.
2. Don't behave as though giving is a burden... it's not. It's an opportunity to share in God's work.

That said, I'm starting work this summer and am going to tithe my gross income.

[E. Pluribus Unum]

The Feds take their share based on your adjusted gross income.

Perhaps God would be satisfied with that?

[#3Fan]

When God first demanded a tithe, the "church" was the church, plus the government, so God basically instituted a 10% flat tax to run the country. Now we already pay the government through regular taxes so it's my belief that the tithe should be what is enough to keep the church healthy. 10% from everyone would be a lot just for a church and may open up a situation where schemers start thinking more of the tithes than they do of teaching.

[safisoft]

For you to say that Y'shua threw out the law, you are calling Him a liar b/c He kept it Himself. The reality of the matter is that w/out the Tanak you would have NO idea what sin even is and why Messiah had to come.

Amen to that! Great post. There is such an anti-Torah bias out there is it amazing. I have discovered that when people actually sit down and READ FOR THEMSELVES, they discover that they have been LIED to by 1,800 years of so-called theologians starting with heretics like Marcion et al. I challenge every believer to read every reference to COMMANDMENT in the "Newer Testament" and still try to make the "Law" a BAD thing. The Book of the Revelation has a few quite sobering ones:

Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.(Re 14:12)

Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. (Re 22:14-15)

People read Psalm 19 and Psalm 119 and smile over the beauty of the language - and then go on to discuss anti-Torah theology. Exactly what do they think it means when it says, "The Law (Torah) of the Lord is clean (tamei)"? Do they understand that what God declares tamei (clean) is clean FOREVER?

Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked. Brethren, I write no new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which you heard from the beginning. (1 Jn 2:3-8)