Posted on 01/23/2003 6:06:25 PM PST by one2many
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That tariff could not possibly have passed had southern representatives kept their seats.
As Aleck Stephens said, no matter -what- Lincoln's policies were, they couldn't come into being as long as Congress was hostile.
Threats to slavery were distant, but the slave power thought they could get while the getting was good.
They were wrong.
Walt
If you percieve the clause I posted to be a simple assertion of opinion on secession, then you have missed its point entirely.
Tocqueville is formulating an argument in that clause. Look closely and see if you can identify it. Then, if you wish to consider its merits, you should weigh in on the validity of that argument.
November you say? I find that unusual, Walt, considering that the Morrill bill was not voted on in the senate until February 1861.
"...then Cromwell had to run them [the Puritans] out of England; and then they went over to Holland, and the Dutch let them alone, but would not let them persecute anybody else; and then they got on that ill-fated ship called the Mayflower and landed on Plymouth Rock. And from that time to this, they have been kicking up a dust generally, and making a mess whenever they could put their fingers in the pie. They confederated with the other states to save themselves from the power of old King George III; and no sooner than they had gotten rid of him than they turned to persecuting their neighbors. Having got rid of the Indians, and witches, and Baptists, and Quakers in their country; after selling us our negroes for the love of gold, they began stealing them back for the love of God. That is the history as well as I understand it.
A bit more Wigfall:
"In simple words rarely heard in the United States Senate, Wigfall of Texas had said: "I am a plain, blunt-spoken man. We say that man has a right to property in man. We say that slaves are our property. We say that it is the duty of every government to protect its property everywhere. If you wish to settle this matter, declare that slaves are property, and like all other property entitled to be protected in every quarter of the globe, on land and sea, Say that to us, and then the difficulty is settled."
--Sandburg's Lincoln
Walt
November you say? I find that unusual, Walt, considering that the Morrill bill was not voted on in the senate until February 1861.
I wasn't talking about the Morrill tariff then, was I?
"The tariff no longer distracts the public councils. Reason has triumphed. The present tariff was voted for by Massachusetts and South Carolina. The lion and the lamb lay down together-- every man in the Senate and House from Massachusetts and South Carolina, I think, voted for it, as did my honorable friend himself. And if it be true, to use the figure of speech of my honorable friend, that every man in the North, that works in iron and brass and wood, has his muscle strengthened by the protection of the government, that stimulant was given by his vote, and I believe every other Southern man. So we ought not to complain of that.
[Mr. Toombs: That tariff lessened the duties.]
[Mr. Stephens:[ Yes, and Massachusetts, with unanimity, voted with the South to lessen them, and they were made just as low as Southern men asked them to be, and those are the rates they are now at. If reason and argument, with experience, produced such changes in the sentiments of Massachusetts from 1832 to 1857, on the subject of the tariff, may not like changes be effected there by the same means, reason and argument, and appeals to patriotism on the present vexed question? And who can say that by 1875 or 1890, Massachusetts may not vote with South Carolina and Georgia upon all those questions that now distract the country and threaten its peace and existence? I believe in the power and efficiency of truth, in the omnipotence of truth, and its ultimate triumph when properly wielded. (Applause.)"
-- Alexander Stephens, November, 1860
Walt
Since the Morrill bill was the point of contention on the tariff issue and since you gave no indication your comments applied to anything else, it is the only tariff one could reasonably conclude you to have been speaking of.
Since the Morrill bill was the point of contention on the tariff issue...
Seven states published secession documents before the Morrill tariff passed.
Walt
You just did a big long piece including discussion of Georgia's secession document and the free trade atmosphere resulting from lowering the tariff rates. That was in 1846.
Walt
The Daily Picayune of New Orleans picked up on Fox's duplicity and noted in its editorials:
With words of peace, they obtained admission into the fort for spies, who betrayed the confidence reposed in their honor, and with the pledge that his purpose was pacific, arranged there a plot for the introduction of armed succor. ... The betrayal of such a trust is the culmination of a long course of meditated duplicity in the Cabinet at Washington and is ample justification for no longer trusting either to their sense of honor or the sincerity of any professions they make if they desire to adjust the pending controversies in any other way but by an issue of force.Here terminates, in a disgraceful exposure, the juggle with which the Lincoln Cabinet have been practicing to deceive the public for the last six weeks.
you-Even under the circumstances of this possibility, no guarantee existed that Abe Lincoln would honor the ruling.
Yes, but consider the circumstances. A confederate state obtains a favorable ruling on the right of secession under the US constitution. The seven states then legally secede from the Union.
Would a newly elected Lincoln be willing to ignore the highest court in the nation in his first act as president? Would European powers be more inclined to recognize a confederacy that had obtained legitimacy through the court system?
Certainly, history would have looked more kindly on the confederates if they had first sought redress under the law. If Amendment X detrermines the right of states to secede, than Article III informs the state(s) where to take their grievance under the law.
you-If the States still in the union had a problem about it, then they should have taken it to the Court.
Your statement makes no sense. I am talking about 1860, before Lincoln takes office, before the first state attempts to secede. All the states are still in the union at this point.
It would have created a precedent...
I'm becoming convinced that the original confederates knew they'd lose in front of the US Supreme court on the issue of secesssion. They also knew the precedent such an unfavorable ruling would set, both domestically as well as in europe.
-btw the patient is starting to become more incoherent and delusional. Should we continue therapy or move to more radical forms of treatment?
Do you have documentation where the South specifically requested that free blacks be excluded from the territories?
You yourself said many people were for free blacks being excluded from the territories, Jefferson Davis was for free blacks being excluded from the U.S. altogether, it's not unlikely that many down south might support that part of the Free Soil proposals, especially since the Free Soilers drew so heavily from the Democrats.
The Supreme Court was not the friend of the secesh.
"In order, therefore, to form a more perfect union, to establish justice, to insure domestic tranquility, to provide for common defense and to secure the blessings of liberty, those people, among whom were the people of Georgia, ordained and established the present constitution. By that constitution, legislative power is vested, executive power is vested, judicial power is vested...We may then infer, that the people of the United States intended to bind the several states, by the legislative power of the national government...
Whoever considers, in a combined and comprehensive view, the general texture of the constitution, wil be satisfied that the people of the United States intended to form themselves into a nation for national purposes. They instituted, for such purposes, a national government complete in all its parts, with powers legislative, executive and judiciary, ad in all those powers extending over the whole nation. "
John Jay, first Chief Justice, 1793:
"It is remarkable that in establishing it, the people exercised their own rights and their own proper sovereignty, and conscious of the plenitude of it, they declared with becoming dignity, "We the people of the United States," 'do ordain and establish this Constitution." Here we see the people acting as the sovereigns of the whole country; and in the language of sovereignty, establishing a Constitution by which it was their will, that the state governments should be bound, and to which the State Constitutions should be made to conform. Every State Constitution is a compact made by and between the citizens of a state to govern themeselves in a certain manner; and the Constitution of the United States is liekwise a compact made by the people of the United States to govern themselves as to general objects, in a certain manner. By this great compact however, many prerogatives were transferred to the national Government, such as those of making war and peace, contracting alliances, coining money, etc."
--Chisholm v. Georgia, 1793
Chief Justice John Marshall:
"The subject is the execution of those great powers on which the welfare of a nation essentially depends. It must have been the intention of those who gave these powers, to insure, as far as human prudence could insure, their beneficial execution. This could not be done by confining their choice of means to such narrow limits as not to leave it in the power of Congress to adopt any which might be approprate, and which were conducive to the end...to have prescribed the means by which the government, should, in all future times, execute its powers, would have been to change, entirely, the character of the instrument, and give it the properties of a legal code...To have declared, that the best means shal not be used, but those alone, without which the power given would be nugatory...if we apply this principle of construction to any of the powers of the government, we shall find it so pernicious in its operation that we shall be compelled to discard it..."
From McCullough v. Maryland, quoted in "American Constittutional Law" A.T. Mason, et al. ed. 1983 p. 165
As to Virginia:
"The mischievous consequences of the construction contended for on the part of Virginia, are also entitled to great consideration. It would prostrate, it has been said, the government and its laws at the feet of every state in the Union. And would this not be the effect? What power of the government could be executed by its own means, in any states disposed to resist its execution by a course of legislation?...each member will possess a veto on the will of the whole...there is certainly nothing in the circumstances under which our constitution was formed; nothing in the history of the times, which justify the opinion that the confidence reposed in the states was so implicit as to leave in them and their tribunals the power of resisting or defeating, in the form of law, the legislative measures of the Union..."
ibid, p. 169-70
"Thus it fell to Story in his first constitutional decision almost to surpass Marshall in his nationalistic leanings, if that were possible. The hopes of the Jeffersonians were blasted. A case came to the Court involving rival grants of land in Virginia. One grant stemmed from the state and one from the British government before the Revolution. Marshall disqualified himself from hearing the case because of a family relation on the side of the ultimate winner. The Supreme Court, in an opinion by Justice Story, held against the grant of the state of Virginia. Normally this would have ended the litigation, as the state supreme court would be expected to issue court process to carry out the decision. But the Supreme Court of Virginia openly defied the decision and refused to issue the proper legal process upholding it! Remember, this was Virginia, the home of the Jeffersonians and the scat of the opposition to Marshall and the Court.
Back the case went to Washington. Story again delivered the opinion of the Court--an opinion which surely reached the ultimate in the doctrine of federal supremacy over the states. Story held that the Virginia court must follow the mandate of the Supreme Court, and indirectly hinted that if this were not done the Supreme Court would issue legal process against the Virginia justices personally, compelling their acquiescence upon threat of contempt. The possible spectacle of a judge of the highest court of a state being called to account before the United States Supreme Court under pain of possible fine or jail sentence is certainly the acme of federal supremacy over the states. The spectacle never took place. The Supreme Court of Virginia acquiesced.
Story's opinion, one of his longest, was one of his ablest. It is magnificently reasoned, as might be expected from a meticulous scholar, but its very thoroughness makes it a somewhat difficult opinion to read and understand. Less than half of it is printed here.
See Professor Jerre S. Williams, University of Texas, author of Constitutional Analysis in a Nutshell for more info
Martin v. Hunter's Lessee, 1 Wheaton 304; 4 L. Ed. 97 (1816).
"Before proceeding to the principal questions, it may not be unfit to dispose of some preliminary considerations which have grown out of the arguments at the bar. The constitution of the United States was ordained and established, not by the states in their sovereign capacities, but emphatically, as the preamble of the constitution declares, by "the people of the United States."
The secesh dared not go before the Supreme Court. They had to drug the mind of their section with "treason thus sugar coated", as President Lincoln said.
Walt
LOL - Court rulings determine law, which can often be the same as making it. If you think Courts don't make "law", I suggest you learn of a dreadful practice called "judicial activism". You will discover you are very incorrect. It has been the very ruin of society, and began a long time ago. Apparently you think the "consensus of states" ruling is not "law", and is therefore meaningless since it certainly has no basis in the Constitution or the documents that created it's union. It was NOT a pre-existing rule of law and was the legal invention (which illegally usurped the conditions in the documents that created the union) of that Court decision. Now you apparently deny the Court's authority altogether, when all I had done was point out a mistake and hoped we could argue it on appeal since it was obviously incorrect. You're starting to sound like an anarchist.
Yeah, that might work. We can cut 'em off from grits.
Walt
Based on that single order for the "hiring of the ships", one could incorrectly think that and be deceived. This one order has often been quoted by supporters of that myth, and that is why I posted it followed by the order in post 434, which reveals the true and stated mission. I presented them as a pair to expose that myth for what it was, a myth. The second order is but one that very clearly shows the true purpose of the mission.
He said as much in letters to Governor Pickens and Major Anderson, and Wells is repeating those instructions here with orders to support the landing of supplies if opposed.
He lied. Read the second order where it is revealed what the true and exact nature of the mission was. The first order only deals with the "hiring of the ships", and the real mission was not revealed in that order. That is common military practice. Lincoln lied.
Had Davis not chosen to begin a war then the status quo would have been maintained and a peaceful resolution might have been achieved. But that didn't suit his purposes I guess.
LOL - It was Lincoln who did not want a peaceful resolution, and that is why he sent US Agent Fox to devise and lead a mission guaranteed to cause an incident sufficent for his warmongering purposes.
Why would he lie?
General Scott told President Lincoln that 20,000 troops would be required to take the town. The whole U.S. Army had not so many men. What could President Lincoln possibly gain by lying?
Can you point out the descrepancies you see in what you posted, and what the clerk Chew delivered to Governor Pickens:
Washington, April 6. 1861
Sir--
You will proceed directly to Charleston, South Carolina; and if, on your arrival there, the flag of the United States shall be flying over Fort-Sumpter, and the Fort shall not have been attacked, you will procure an interview with Gov. Pickens, and read to him as follows: "I am directed by the President of the United States to notify you to expect an attempt will be made to supply Fort-Sumpter with provisions only; and that, if such attempt be not resisted, no effort to throw in men, arms, or amunition, without will be made, without further notice, or in case of an attack upon the Fort"
After you shall have read this to Governor Pickens, deliver to him the copy of it herein enclosed, and retain this letter yourself--
But if, on your arrival at Charleston, you shall ascertain that Fort-Sumpter shall have been already evacuated, or surrendered, by the United States force; or, shall have been attacked by an opposing force, you will seek no interview with Gov. Pickens, but return here forthwith-- [On Following Sheet:]
I am directed by the President of the United States to notify you to expect an attempt will be made to supply Fort-Sumpter with provisions only; and that, if such attempt be not resisted, no effort to throw in men, arms, or amunition will be made, without further notice, or in case of an attack upon the Fort--
[Endorsed on Envelope by Lincoln:]
President Lincoln didn't lie. He had no earthly reason to.
Attempts to besmirch his memory will always founder on the record.
Walt
You are talking about a time frame of about a month after he promised to support a constitutional amendment protecting slavery in the states.
How does that square with war mongering?
Walt
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