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Elizabeth Smart Thread, 9/17/02 to ???

Posted on 09/16/2002 11:10:48 PM PDT by Utah Girl

Just thought I would start a new thread.


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To: jo6pac
Who put a quarter in you tonight?

I noted with interest your remarks in your Post 68, and wondered how you knew the background of the author. I plan to do a little research on him, thanks to having read that post and finding that it aroused my curiosity.
81 posted on 09/17/2002 10:47:06 PM PDT by Devil_Anse
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To: Devil_Anse
Not to get off topic, but weren't the Smarts on the John Walsh show last week? I was frying tacos and missed their segment. The Runnions were on as well as the parents of another young girl who was murdered this summer. I expected to read people's reactions and what the Smarts had to say -- was kind of hoping for some new fodder for this thread.
82 posted on 09/17/2002 10:56:30 PM PDT by ChocChipCookie
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To: varina davis
You are no doubt a paragon of piety.

No I'm not, Varina, I'm a paragon of suspicion. I think that is perhaps something that you and I have in common at times. But we are wasting our energy if we let our suspicions lead us in directions which are not indicated by the few facts we know about this case.

You will perhaps deny it, but to me it is unmistakeable that you are implying the possibility of incest. As I said, I am willing to at least consider the worst in any person known in this investigation.

But that phenomenon is comparatively rare. What have we seen to indicate its presence here? Nothing. The reason I, for one, don't wish to consider it now is b/c I think it's the wrong answer. It would be a waste of energy.

We are using our knowledge of the world, the experiences we've all had which have hopefully divested us of too much naivete, to imagine every possibility. But since there's only so much energy available to each one of us, we need to use it wisely, and concentrate on theories which have at least some underpinning of fact. Sometimes, I think, we are ignoring the normal-looking aspects of Elizabeth's family in favor of imaginings of abnormal doings which are just not backed up by what little we can see plainly.

83 posted on 09/17/2002 11:04:11 PM PDT by Devil_Anse
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To: ChocChipCookie
I heard John Walsh was going to have them on, but I missed it too. If anyone here saw it, maybe they'll give us a summary.

I wonder what went through the minds of the police and FBI who work on the Smart case, when they heard how the authorities who prosecuted Westerfield had almost cut a deal just to get the location of the body out of Westerfield. I'll bet it sent a chill through them, although they, having no doubt been involved in plenty of other homicide investigations, were surely already aware of the pitfalls of going too fast when the victim's body is still missing.
84 posted on 09/17/2002 11:09:45 PM PDT by Devil_Anse
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To: Palladin
However, none of it is relevant to the Eliz. Smart case, as she and her family are not Catholic.

Richard Ricci was said to have been nominally a Catholic. Oh...wait...has he been 100% cleared of all suspicion now?

85 posted on 09/17/2002 11:22:21 PM PDT by Devil_Anse
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To: Devil_Anse
DA...I don't want to be nit-picking but I go to all those forums plus others and yes, there has been innuendo about the sad life of Ashley, starting with the abuse she received from her own father, but no one has come out and said more than that....the way your statement came out sounding like she was some sort of harlot.....I think she was only 12 years old at the time....

and with you, I agree whole-heartedly that she was the very sad victim of a lifetime of abuse and neglect...

86 posted on 09/17/2002 11:35:36 PM PDT by cherry
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Comment #87 Removed by Moderator

To: ChocChipCookie
I watched the John Walsh interview with Ed and Lois. I thought the Smart children were going to be on as well but that wasn't so. It was a good interview but nothing new came out from it.
88 posted on 09/18/2002 7:39:34 AM PDT by sandude
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To: Devil_Anse
Estimates of the number of incest victims in the United States vary. These discrepancies can be attributed to the fact that incest remains an extremely under-reported crime. All too often, pressure from family members -- in addition to threats or pressure from the abuser -- results in extreme reluctance to reveal abuse and to subsequently obtain help (Matsakis, 1991).

Incest has been cited as the most common form of child abuse. Studies conclude that 43 percent (43%) of the children who are abused are abused by family members, 33 percent (33%) are abused by someone they know, and the remaining 24 percent (24%) are sexually abused by strangers (Hayes, 1990). Other research indicates that over 10 million Americans have been victims of incest.

One of the nation's leading researchers on child sexual abuse, David Finkelhor, estimates that 1,000,000 Americans are victims of father-daughter incest, and 16,000 new cases occur annually (Finkelhor, 1983). However, Finkelhor's statistics may be significantly low because they are based primarily on accounts of white, middle-class women and may not adequately represent low-income and minority women (Matsakis, 1991).

Victims of incest are often extremely reluctant to reveal that they are being abused because their abuser is a person in a position of trust and authority for the victim. Often the incest victim does not understand -- or they deny -- that anything is wrong with the behavior they are encountering (Vanderbilt, 1992). Many young incest victims accept and believe the perpetrator's explanation that this is a "learning experience" that happens in every family by an older family member. Incest victims may fear they will be disbelieved, blamed or punished if they report their abuse.

You say the "phenomenon is comparatively rare." Statistics disagree. Plus, it is one of the most under-reported crimes on children. Hopefully, this is not the reason so many young girls run away from from home-- or simply disappear.

90 posted on 09/18/2002 7:57:02 AM PDT by varina davis
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To: jengaio
A lot of people don't know that.

True, and even more people won't admit it even if they do know it.

92 posted on 09/18/2002 8:16:41 AM PDT by varina davis
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To: varina davis; jengaio
Okay, you guys. I'm not saying incest doesn't happen, I'm just asking, what, really, do we know to indicate that it happened in this case?

To tell you the truth, I trust my own experiences, from closed courtrooms, special facilities set up to interview child rape victims, and neglect/abuse files, to tell me that incest is indeed a real and devastating phenomenon. I trust statistics less, generally keeping in mind the saying, "There are three kinds of lies--lies, damned lies, and statistics."

For example, what about this? Studies conclude that 43 percent (43%) of the children who are abused are abused by family members, 33 percent (33%) are abused by someone they know, and the remaining 24 percent (24%) are sexually abused by strangers. Isn't there some overlap between the group who are abused by family members, and the group who are abused by "someone they know?" I mean, a family member would also be "someone they know," wouldn't it?

Also, I don't see how a child who is sexually abused by "someone s/he knows" (without more, to indicate a relative), or a stranger, is a victim of incest. Strangers? I mean, I guess someone could meet a family member and be molested by him on the same day, while he is still sort of a stranger, but isn't that stretching it a bit?

Also, I wish the source had broken down the group "family members" further. A family member can include step-parents, step-siblings, adoptive relatives, uncles and aunts, in-laws, and on outward to more distant relatives. Would you two at least agree that incest perpetrated by a full-blood close relative such as father or brother is at least less common than incest perpetrated by a more distant relative, or a step-relative? The girl in question lived, as far as we know, only with her closest blood relatives. Presumably incest, when it occurs, would occur more frequently among relatives who live together, since there are far more opportunities. Yes, of course it happens. And I'm not saying that a close relative such as a father or brother might not do it. But what do we know to indicate that it happened to Elizabeth?

93 posted on 09/18/2002 8:24:47 AM PDT by Devil_Anse
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To: varina davis
even more people won't admit it even if they do know it.

If you are speaking of me, varina--and I fully expect you to indignantly ask me where on earth I could have gotten THAT idea--then you are barking up the wrong tree. I know it happens, and I acknowledge that it happens.

I am sure we can all agree that doing such a thing to a child is sick and inexcusable under any circumstances. But we should separate the two thoughts:

1. Incest is a sick and horrible, inexcusable crime and travesty.

2. We have no idea at this point whether Elizabeth Smart was a victim of incest.

94 posted on 09/18/2002 8:32:17 AM PDT by Devil_Anse
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To: Sherlock
If one wants to know truth one must go to the source of truth, God. Not private interpretation. The book of Revelation states that man can not add to it. It does not say God won't. Also Revelation was written chronologically before 1 John, 2 John, and 3 John even though John was the author of all of them.

As you pointed out there will be many false teachers in the latter days. Does that also mean there will be true teachers authorized by God? What if there is a church started in these days by Jesus? I belive there are authorized teachers and that he still gives revelations to "powerful men". Having said that though, I am not going to make the attempt to convince you! As another poster said to someone, I'll just agree to disagree. But thanks for your insight!

96 posted on 09/18/2002 9:17:43 AM PDT by klamath
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To: Devil_Anse
2. We have no idea at this point whether Elizabeth Smart was a victim of incest.

Well, OF COURSE we don't! And not likely to, either.

97 posted on 09/18/2002 9:22:36 AM PDT by varina davis
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To: Devil_Anse
But what do we know to indicate that it happened to Elizabeth?

Since it is so hidden and under-reported, why would you even think the public would know? Even mothers and other family members often keep it hidden to preserve the family reputation and with hopes it won't recur, with counseling, etc.

98 posted on 09/18/2002 9:26:19 AM PDT by varina davis
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To: varina davis
Well, OF COURSE we don't! And not likely to, either.

Well, then I guess we'll never get to solve the mystery, will we, Varina? I hear space-alien abductions are also kept under very strict wraps, so we'd also be s---outta luck if that was the explanation, too!

Take heart. There's still one girl left living in that family, and if anyone knows any such thing about Elizabeth, that person might very well have had it up to here with the abuser!

99 posted on 09/18/2002 9:47:30 AM PDT by Devil_Anse
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To: Devil_Anse
There's still one girl left living in that family, and if anyone knows any such thing about Elizabeth, that person might very well have had it up to here with the abuser!

One can always hope.

100 posted on 09/18/2002 9:50:02 AM PDT by varina davis
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