Elizabeth Smart Thread, 9/17/02 to ???

[Utah Girl]

Just thought I would start a new thread.

[Utah Girl]

I am starting a new thread. This one is over 1000 posts long, and is too unwieldy. I'll try to ping everyone.

[Devil_Anse]

You say the key is MK? What'd I tell you--EYEWITNESS TESTIMONY.

Not following you here.

Just that I'd said that most criminal cases I'd seen had started out with a core of evidence that had eyewitness testimony--not forensics, though forensics are of course important. Just making the point that the heart of this case is the eyewitness testimony of Mary K.--not some intricate forensic evidence. Just as you said--it comes down to Mary Katherine.

[Devil_Anse]

Is this the article you are looking for?

That's one of them. I see that it said "interviews with neighbors seem to contradict the report that the neighbors were present before police."--I may not have quoted that word for word, but that was definitely the idea. Then they go on to quote Sue Ann Adams. I think this article was also posted by Utah Girl, and quoted by Freedox.

[Devil_Anse]

About the story that Ricci had initially said he was out with friends the night of June 4: This may have been from an interview with Angela on TV, or a police press conference. I'm hoping it was LKL, b/c then the transcript is available. I'll look for it, and for the bit about his initially saying that about the drug clinic. I seem to remember that the drug clinic thing was very early--so I will look at articles around June 24. I think the first reporter told the public about Ricci on June 22, and my earliest memory of reading about him is June 24.

Also, don't forget that the attorney, Mr. Smith, said things about the jeep such as, it's not unusual to rack up a lot of mileage just driving around the valley in the SLC area (so 500-1000 miles, no big deal), and he also said Ricci had told him he'd taken the jeep 4-wheeling. That was on LKL. But then there was also the contention by Angela, later, when she'd appear w/o Smith, that she and Rick just had no idea where the jeep was during the mystery period, and that Rick never had it at all, and Neth must be mistaken about Rick ever coming to get it or to turn it back in.

I remember posting on another forum; I'll look there, too. I posted that if he'd been out with friends earlier in the evening on June 4, maybe he had dressed all natty--nice khaki pants, sport shirt, golf hat, dark shoes...remember they said MK described the man as nicely dressed. I posted that in reaction to having heard he'd claimed to be out with friends; it was weeks ago.

[Devil_Anse]

They were looking for Elizabeth, not for the perpetrator...

Excellent point. Most people have heard of the Kitty Genovese case, if not by name, at least as "that woman in NY who was murdered while 30 people peeped out their windows but did nothing." People want to help, and people want to have the satisfaction of saving someone if they can. And they were on familiar ground, in their own neighborhood. I walk my dog at very late hours sometimes, in my own neighborhood, but I wouldn't walk around that late in a place I wasn't familiar with. I know it's not entirely safe, but I do know all the escape routes!

[Devil_Anse]

The neighbors would run out to help look without knowing all the details, and hoping it was a sneaking out situation, but fearful it was a kidnapping/rape/murder.

Exactly. Or most of the neighbors may not have known anything more than that Elizabeth was missing. For all they knew, perhaps, she'd turned out to be a sleepwalker and somehow left the house and fallen into a ditch. Or for those who imagined something more sinister, who hasn't heard the thing about how the first 3 hours after a child abduction are the most critical?

[Devil_Anse]

It looks more and more like the "big search" was a big CYA.

Only to you.

Another reason the police might have not labored mightily to shoo each and every neighbor into a house--they are trained to observe. They would want to see who was milling around, and if they had enough manpower on the scene, who knows who they might find acting all innocent in the crowd, 3 hours after the alleged incident? Some killers might dispose of their victim in a short time (like that guy Sickler was trying to do with Charlotte Hansen) and then make their escape while "hiding in plain sight," just for the thrill of it.

[stlnative]

NEW THREAD
Elizabeth Smart Thread, 9/26/02 to ???

[sandude]

Yet people on this thread had it all figured out and worked it so Ricci did it, right down to being the ROAST PIG GUY..or used a POST HOLE DIGGER to dig for a BODY for crying out loud!! It almost makes me laugh to remember that. That is why I started posting stupid pictures. This thing is so absurd that I would hate to tell anyone of the things that are discussed here!!

Yes and I laugh at your ridiculous notions as well.

[sandude]

You don't know that! I counted Ricci out from the beginning. Time line. Yes, he is a scum.....TIME LINE.

All right, why do you think that LE was suspicious of his alibi? Do you think that maybe they know more about his time line than we do? If you counted Ricci out from the beginning then you must have little regard for LE in this case? Why is that?

[cookiedough]

First, that there was no evidence of a vehicle, does not mean a vehicle was not used.

Second, why would the gunman be hiding in the neighborhood, with a hostage, a couple of hours later? No reason for him to hang around, and even if he had walked out, he could have been 8 miles away two hours later.

Third, the police may have thought Liz was a runaway when they first arrived at the scene. Teenagers do tend to run away or sneak out at night more often than they get abducted from their bedrooms in the middle of the night.

[cookiedough]

I don't see how whether the Smarts called the police first or a neighbor first has any bearing on the case. Seems to me phone records could answer that question, if it is pertinent.

The Smarts could have had more than one phone line, and likely did if Mr. Smart has his business in his home, plus one or mroe cell phones. It is not a far-fetched speculation that one of the Smarts could have called the police while another one used another telephone to call a neighbors.

[cookiedough]

MK saw a gun and heard a threat. Surely she would not think her parents said it was okay for this scenario to occur.

I think she fell asleep. To me, that's the only rational explanation for the two hour time lapse. Two hours is an awfully long time for anyone, let alone a child, to sit in the dark, terrified and unable to move. She didn't have to walk a long distance to get to her parents' bedroom, and it's not like the gunman was active in the house the whole time.

So, with no long-lasting danger, and no distance to travel to get help, and with a desire to help her sister, the two hour time lapse does not make sense to me, unless she fell asleep or the interval between abduction and notification was much shorter than reported.

As far as I know, the only person who knows exactly what time it was that Liz was taken is MK. Could she have been mistaken about the time?

[jandji]

Maybe the neighbors weren't told about an "armed man." ..this is the crux of the whole story. mk told ed, "a man took liz", then it was "a man took liz at gunpoint" then ed ran to nieghbors houses and pounded on thier doors, asking them, "are your kids safe?" either they were frantic because it was an armed abductor or what?

[cookiedough]

I'll second that! Criminal clients lie to their lawyers. I think it is because they believe lawyers who think they are innocent will work harder for them, and will not throw the case either either purposefully or negligently.

Clients lie even the face of incontrovertible evidence that they did the crime -- such as many witnesses, videos, wiretaps.

This is particularly true of experienced criminals. The newly hatched ones are easier to crack.

[cookiedough]

How would the police know there had been no gunman before they had investigated the case? The simple answer is that the police assumed this was a runaway case, and even if it weren't, the gunman was long gone. Gunmen do not hang around to get into a shootout with the neighbors!

Fact is, the police made a mistake in not securing the crime scene immediately. This is not a small town PD -- they could have called for reinforcement if they needed help clearing people from the scene.

Police officers do make mistakes based on erroneous assumptions, sometimes. Don't we all.

[cookiedough]

"Your parents said this was okay, and just in case you don't believe that, I've got a gun shoved into your back."

[cookiedough]

Whether the person had the day off following an abudction is one of the factors used to determine whether that person is a suspect in the case.

[cookiedough]

I never thought about putting a phone in a child's room as a safety measure. In our family, the children are not allowed to have computers, telephones, televisions, and the like in their rooms. Mr. Cookiedough and I figure that if we put all that in, the kids will live in their rooms instead of with the rest of the family. Also, we closely restrict and supervise the use of those items.

The children think we are throwbacks to another time, because many of their friends have rooms which lack only a kitchen to be called separate apartments.

We have a fairly large house, and the only telephone is in the kitchen. We have two computers -- the one that is hooked up to the internet is in the den. Our only television is in the living room.

I am saying this only to point out that some people who can otherwise afford more stuff choose not to have it because of their personal beliefs and lifestyle.

Now that you bring up phones as a safety measure, I am going to find the extra phone and put it in my bedroom. Good idea.

[Devil_Anse]

I just scanned back over the posts, and finally took a good look at the pictures you had posted! ROFLMAO!!

Better watch it--boy, you're going to hear from someone on that!! She's probably on the web collecting pictorial retorts right now!