Elizabeth Smart Thread, 9/9/02 to ???

[stlnative]

New thread...

[Devil_Anse]

On Lakey's idea that Ed "knows very well who the abductor is."

You pointed out the doubtfulness of this. I agree it is extremely doubtful that Ed knows any such thing.

Also, if Ed "knows very well who the abductor is," would someone, perhaps Lakey, please tell me why Ed, the SLC police, the FBI, the entire Mormon Church, the government of the state of Utah (b/c we all know the Smarts have THEM in their pocket, too!), and the U.S. Marines, haven't all descended on this person, this abductor who is "known very well" to Ed Smart???

[varina davis]

We don't know for sure about either thing, do we?

No, we don't. Will you be joining David Smart's canyon search on Saturday?

[Sherlock]

The three cars are: a 1990 White Jeep Cherokee, 1992 Tan Ford Taurus and a 1995 White Oldsmobile Cutlass.

At an afternoon news conference Monday, Trujillo described the driver he saw as a white male with dark hair, wide sideburns, wearing a cream-colored shirt or jacket and driving a white or silver sedan made in the late 1980s or early 1990s. He was not wearing a hat. Trujillo observed the "Grand Am type" car...

[sandude]

I'd bet it was a piece of crap from the start and Ed was all too happy to "offer" it to Ricci knowing it was no good.

Why do you assume that Ed is dishonest in his dealings? As far as the car being a piece of crap, why don't you howl at Chrysler, they built the damn thing, not Ed Smart.

[Jolly Green]

Geez, I hate to hit the "abuse" button again, Sherlock, but you've reverted back to the insults. So uncouth. So childish. So....you.

And so accurate!

[Sherlock]

Does anyone have the name of the guy someone posted about the other day that just got out of jail in March or so and admitted he had been an accomplice in another murder?

[lakey]

I've already told Sherlock I expected that comeback on Ricci. I also said kidnapping was not his modus operandi.

If you want to talk about possibilities, then there's also a possibility that a neighbor or family member (WITH the MO) took Elizabeth.

[lakey]

Did not Lois state a couple of months later that Mary Katherine recognized the voice? Now, when did Lois find this out? You don't know, and neither do I.

[lakey]

Good grief, JG, are you telling me that a parent's intuition is off-target because it isn't logical?

Is faith logical?

[Sherlock]

I also said kidnapping was not his modus operandi.

I don't know, lakey, how different is kidnapping from taking a hostage?

On Nov. 2, 2001, the FBI and Sandy police said Ricci masterminded the hold-up of Far West Bank, 8520 S. 1300 East. According to a Sandy police report, a man in a ski mask entered the bank holding a black handgun just before 5 p.m. The man ordered two tellers to lie down on the floor and threatened to take a third hostage if the tellers didn't cooperate. The man took $1,713 from the tills and ran out of the bank. The man was seen getting into the passenger side of a white Honda. Wednesday, Assistant U.S. Attorney Richard Lambert announced Ricci was that man. Young and Remington also participated in the bank robbery. he said.

[Devil_Anse]

"Hollywood usually portrays criminals as sexy and smart, but the reality is that most are low-life brutes. The glimpse that Angela gave of Richard the other night shows that he was more than that. His violent past shows us a more sociopathic side. He was a complicated man that's for sure."

Okay, Sandude, I'll defer to your greater knowledge of the size of Mormon extended families, but on the subject of sociopaths...

Sandude, it wasn't the VIOLENT STUFF that indicated Rick's sociopathic side--it was the sweet, endearing stuff! Don't you know, the sociopath is so good at mimicking the normal emotions that well-adjusted people have, that the sociopath COMES OFF AS MORE LOVABLE than the honest, genuine person?? (Think Clinton. To this day, he still has a following.)

Sociopath: con artist; also, person with no conscience.

There are degrees of everything, but I definitely think there is a touch of the con artist in Angela. I can see that Angela conned YOU, Sandude, into believing that this CAREER CRIMINAL was "more than a low-life brute," that he was "a complicated man." Sandude, low-life cons like Ricci are a dime a dozen. Trust me on that! He was no complicated man--he was a slave to heroin and alcohol, who looked for criminal opportunities, and often found them.

Of course, every human is God's creature. There has to have been good in the man--good that came from God. But I see absolutely no good in him that came from the man himself.

[Jolly Green]

Jolly, where have we seen someone in this case with wide, dark sideburns. I see a picture of someone with wide, black sideburns but can't remember who it was. I wonder if the guy the milkman saw had wide sideburns.

I would have said Trujillo except that it is him saying it. I'm no help on that.

[lakey]

#411 Am anxiously awaiting the trial's evidence. Until the proof is shown, remember "innocent until proven guilty."

[sandude]

The problem with this, from my standpoint, is the man fitting the description and clothing of the kidnapper was in a sedan in Shriner's parking lot. They would have had to change vehicles sometime after leaving the parking lot and before the kidnapping. Also the kidnapper would have had to blindfold Elizabeth before she saw the Jeep or she might have recognized it and there wouldn't have been a convenient way to do this out in the street unless the accomplice met the kidnapper & Liz before she saw the Jeep.

It's hard to say how many people could have been involved in this thing so who knows exactly how it went down. If Elizabeth saw the Jeep and was later released then they would have bore in on Ricci but by then his alibi would have been harder to question and if Liz positively stated that she never saw or heard Richard that night then he would have withstood the scrutiny. That is unless he started recklessly spending money which has been the downfall of many criminals.

[Devil_Anse]

Re: polygraphs, tactical moves of police.

I firmly believe that the polygraph is used by police (and other authorities) 99% to create a mood which is conducive to truth-telling, and maybe 1% to "measure the physical responses and measure changes, blah blah blah."

The old way of doing polygraphs, doubt it's changed too much nowadays:
I believe the first thing they do is get their "baseline." They take a known fact, like "which card did you take from the deck" and have the subject write down the answer. The answer is then saved, but not read by the examiner. Then they go through the whole deck of cards, asking the subject, is this the card? And INSTRUCTING the subject to say "no" each time he is asked--EVEN WHEN THEY GET TO THE RIGHT CARD, AND THE TRUTHFUL ANSWER WOULD BE "YES."

Then they check what was the real card, and go back and "read" the subject's results. They say, ah, oh, yes, I see here where you showed a reaction when I asked you about the real card, and you had to lie and say no.

THIS DEMONSTRATION IS FOR THE BENEFIT OF CREATING IN THE MIND OF THE TESTED SUBJECT, A BELIEF IN THE POWER OF THE POLYGRAPH TO DETECT LYING.

Amazing how much you can get out of an interrogee if you just convince him that you have a superior power, a power of seeing through his lies.

[sandude]

Angela said on LK that her husband's polygraph has NEVER been revealed or released.

If you read the transcript you'll see that she indicates that the newspaper stated that he failed the test but that she had never actually been given any official results.

[Sherlock]

Is faith logical?

If you study bible prophecy, and look around and see everything predicted by the prophets 2500 years ago is meticulously in place, with the countdown predicted to start ticking when Israel is regathered to the land for the 2nd time (1st time appr. 600 BC, 2nd time May 14, 1948), I think it's pretty logical.

Zech 12: 2-3 "Behold, I will make Jerusalem a CUP OF TREMBLING (like drunk with wine, they will be intoxicated with hatred over it) unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the seige against both Judah and against Jerusalem. And in that day I will make Jerusalem a BURDENSOME STONE for ALL people; ALL that burdon themselves with it shall be cut in pieces (get a hernia), though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it."

What? All this hubub over a small, insignificant city like Jerusalem, ALL the nations of the world that get involved in it get a hernia? Who could ever believe nonsense like this? The Jews become a nation again after 2000 years? Hogwash.

[Devil_Anse]

"Will you be joining David Smart's canyon search on Saturday?"

You know, Varina, isn't it great that we, you know, the members of the Smart and Ricci families, have, you know, found this civilized way of discussing our differences?

[lakey]

Being a super-sleuth, perhaps you can supply a list of banks robbed by more than one person since Bonnie & Clyde, and the Patty Hearst fiasco.