Elizabeth Smart Thread, 9/9/02 to ???

[stlnative]

New thread...

[varina davis]

See post 365.

[lakey]

As far as I know, you are correct.

[lakey]

See post 365 - oh, I missed that. Thanks.

[cookiedough]

If the stalker is an acquaintance, then the victim has a passing familiarity to him.

If the stalker is a stranger, then the victim was chosen by chance and opportunity. Can't stalk unless there's opportunity and the chance could be merely be that the particular victim fits the perp's idea of the perfect prey.

[Sherlock]

What did you tell the administrator, varina? What is your complaint?

[Jolly Green]

Ed Smart says he feels his daughter is still alive. So do I. Why? For the simple reasons stated above, and that tells me he knows very well who the abductor is. And it wasn't Ricci!

Logic, Lakey! Your conclusion doesn't support your hypothesis. Just because Ed Smart thinks she is alive, doesn't mean that she is or that he knows who the abductor is. He wants to believe she is alive with all his heart. Wouldn't you? There is zip, zero, nada evidence that he knows who - in spite of your instincts!

[dalebert]

pinging myself

[Devil_Anse]

Q. Did Ricci fail a polygraph?

No official word on this, but I heard with my own ears, on Fox News, the reporter said, "sources say Ricci failed the polygraph."

This was while Ricci was alive. Fox doesn't want to have to defend defamation suits any more than any other media outlet, I'm sure. I do not think Fox's reputation is so in the toilet that they wouldn't at least check a story a time or two b/f reporting it.

Does this PROVE FOR ALL TIME that Ricci failed a polygraph? No. But it is persuasive of that fact, at least to me. Just telling you what I heard. "I report, you decide."

[Devil_Anse]

That's right, Lakey. Keep going.

"Danielle Van Dam knew her neighbor-killer...Samantha Runnion's killer had seen her when visiting his girlfriend...The Hansen girl's father was friends with Javier whatshisname..."

Elizabeth Smart knew her killer because he'd worked at her home as a handyman...OH, WAIT!!!! Sorry, I didn't quote you accurately! That last part, you never said it, did you?

But it is a possibility, isn't it? Just a possibility?

[Jolly Green]

Angela Ricci has never admitted to calling the repair shop on May 30. "One time" does not equal May 30.

Pay attention, because I'm only going to say this once. 1. Angela admitted she called Moul on LKL about the fuel pump. 2. The jeep was towed in on May 30th because of a bad fuel pump. She never admitted it, but she got caught in a lie.

[Sherlock]

Trujillo described the driver he saw as a white male with dark hair, wide sideburns, wearing a cream-colored shirt or jacket and driving a white or silver sedan made in the late 1980s or early 1990s. He was not wearing a hat. Trujillo observed the "Grand Am type" car...

Jolly, where have we seen someone in this case with wide, dark sideburns. I see a picture of someone with wide, black sideburns but can't remember who it was. I wonder if the guy the milkman saw had wide sideburns.

[Devil_Anse]

Sherlock said: "Angela said that she read Richard failed his polygraph. I'm pretty sure I read that too."

Varina said: "Angela said on LK that her husband's polygraph has NEVER been revealed or released."

Sherlock and Varina, you could easily both be right. You see, Angela could have said ALL those things. Angela seldom gives the same version of any event or anything else, twice. She appears to be UNABLE to keep from changing her version of any particular thing.

[sandude]

Elizabeth says their "script" as required, but also blinks her eyes in Morse code, conveying a secret message that "My location is at [fill in address] and there are [fill in number] kidnappers involved, and their names seem to be [fill in names she's overheard.]"

I was saving that for the Hollywood screenplay which I'll have you write. On a serious note, if the abductors were going to hold Elizabeth for an extended period of time before making a ransom demand then they would have had to have done something to assure the family that she was still alive and well.

I wonder if Ricci was as capable as an educated person, say an engineer, of doing such detailed planning in advance.

There are a number of things to point out here. It was a group effort and the planning may have gone on for awhile. Richard was a very intelligent person according to Fred the security man. As a career criminal he would have picked up a lot of things each time he was in the joint. I think that most career criminals are aware of the potency of DNA evidence. Many a convict has been found guilty based on this science and that kind of information would spread fast in the prison system. In short, I think that Richard was perfectly capable of planning this. He probably had input from others as well and we have no idea of the mental capability of his chief accomplice.

As for their keeping her alive for several weeks, I can't imagine more than maybe 1% of kidnappers considering such a thing.

The scenario I proposed is only one of many that would involve a ransom. It is probably the one with the best chances of success though. Chief Dinse did say that this was a very unusual crime.

I think the police are more inclined to set up parallel investigations in a situation like this--runaway, AND possible abduction.

You could be right. Perhaps 3 or 4 detectives might have worked the case. Still far fewer than what we have seen involved in this case. There is no way the FBI would have gotten involved until way late in the game if even that.

CRIMINALS NEVER THINK THEY ARE GOING TO GET CAUGHT.

That's true of a good deal of them. They are not quite as smart as they think they are. Hollywood usually portrays criminals as sexy and smart but the reality is that most are low life brutes. The glimpse that Angela gave of Richard the other night though shows that he was more than that. His violent past shows us a more sociopathic side. He was a complicated man that's for sure.

I really think the bunch of cars would have been around the elder Francoms' home--not around the decedent's daughter's home.

You really have no idea of just how large an extended Mormon family can be. I'd be surprised if there wasn't a large group at Ed and Lois' place during this time.

For an easier ransom kidnapping, why not choose Mary K. or little 3-yr-old William?

A good question. It has been reported that Lois and Elizabeth were extremely close. Richard probably picked up on this and could have felt that Liz was the prize catch as far as a big ransom went. He also knew enough about Liz to accurately predict that she would not put up a struggle.

[Jolly Green]

Another one. Enough said.

YAILP - Yet Another Informed Logical Poster = a threat to varina.

Focus: Welcome aboard!

[Sherlock]

KING: Did he take a lie detector test?

RICCI: Yes, he did. And no one, not even his attorneys have gotten the results of that test.

KING: So nobody's announced whether he passed it, failed it or anything?

RICCI: No. Well, they printed in the paper that he failed.

[Devil_Anse]

"Elizabeth could well have known the bishop"

Yes. And *Ricci could well have failed a polygraph.*

We don't know for sure about either thing, do we?

[Sherlock]

Why would the police tell Angela Richard failed his polygraph? It may be in their tactical interest not to.

[sandude]

Since the gun is the determining factor in this case, how could the police "tend to not believe" Ed Smart if he said "my daughter has been taken by a man with a gun" or something similar. Since the gun makes this a kidnapping, wouldn't Ed be sure to let the police know a gun was used?

I believe that the police were on the scene within 12 minutes of the initial call. That would indicate that they took it pretty seriously. Once getting there they would have discovered that Mary Katherine was the only witness and perhaps thought that she had dreamt it. From all we know it looks like the lead officer pegged this as a runaway and didn't change his mind for a couple of hours.

[Sherlock]

Smith refused to discuss the 1,000 unaccounted-for miles that were reportedly put on Ricci's Jeep Cherokee around the time of the girl's disappearance. Smith said he was withholding an explanation to dispute a possible prosecution theory.

[Jolly Green]

Yes, I remember that. The first thing I read about him also he only talked about one car, never mentioned a 2nd. He also said he made a 911 call to police while taping the car and I've never heard that mentioned again.

In the LKL interview you posted tonight, he initially talked only about one car and then switched to two - almost like he thought he had been talking about two all along.