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Very interesting! I've been fascinated by the early struggles of the Celtic church against Rome for some time now, so this article was right up my alley... I suppose it's a little odd to claim that there were Calvinists a thousand years before Calvin was born, but hey, the Baptists claim an honorable pre-Reformation pedigreed! Why shouldn't Presbyterians have the same privilege?

I don't really have anything to add, but I'll be watching the conversation... bump!

Very interesting! I've been fascinated by the early struggles of the Celtic church against Rome for some time now, so this article was right up my alley... I suppose it's a little odd to claim that there were Calvinists a thousand years before Calvin was born, but hey, the Baptists claim an honorable pre-Reformation pedigreed! Why shouldn't Presbyterians have the same privilege? I don't really have anything to add, but I'll be watching the conversation... bump!

Actually, if you read the statements of the Culdee Presbyters carefully, you'll note that they are actually closer to Martin Luther's "strong" Predestinarian doctrine of total depravity, which holds that the Fall totally enslaved the human Free Will to sin.

"God is the author of all that is good in man; that is to say, both of good-nature and goodwill, which, unless God do work in him, man cannot do, because this good-will is prepared by the Lord in man, that, by the gift of God he may do that which by himself he could not do of his own free-will."

Likewise the Waldensian Independents and AnaBaptists:

"All those that have been, and shall be saved, have been elected of God, before the foundation of the world. It is impossible that those that are appointed to salvation, should not be saved. Whosoever upholds free-will denieth absolutely predestination, and the grace of God."

John Calvin's more nuanced "moderate" Predestinarian doctrine of total depravity, which affirms the Freedom of the Will while also affirming that All Natural Wants are depraved (thus man is free, but only wants to sin, and so sins freely), is essentially unknown to these pre-Reformation Christians.

Their doctrine of Total Depravity is the more simple doctrine of Luther: the Fall destroyed human Free Will, and now humans possess only a Sin-Enslaved Will.

For myself, I hold to the Calvinist view; but it is not exactly correct to call these Christians "Calvinists before Calvin". Their doctrines of Predestination ran more closely parallel to Luther's strong view of Predestination, than to Calvin's slightly more moderate view.

"I suppose it's a little odd to claim that there were Calvinists a thousand years before Calvin was born.."

Biblical Truth never changes. Calvin just agreed with it.

What makes me laugh is the fact that some people here on Free Republic rail on and on about "the media" and how they are so "biased" -- that they slant the news toward the "liberal" viewpoint, and try to silence those with whom they don't agree -- but many of these people are engaging in the very same emotionally immature, biased, censuring, politically correct, legalistic behavior here on these threads. :D

If they can't refute the message, they attack the messenger(s). And rather than not reading or participating in threads with subject matter or personalities they can't emotionally handle, they attempt to prevent others who don't have these emotional problems from reading them by trying to get them pulled under the guise of "abuse".

Soooooooo many feminized males and air-head females ..... sooooo little time. :D

Thanks so much for all the time and effort you put into compiling and condensing all this info about the history of the church in one handy place, OP. I have quickly scanned it and it is definately the keeper I knew it would be! I copied it into my email program so I can read it more carefully later when I have more time. I didn't want to take the chance that it might not be here when I come back to read it later on. I will send this liink out to some others that I know will appreciate reading it also.