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To: JenB, Jerry_M, the_doc
Very interesting! I've been fascinated by the early struggles of the Celtic church against Rome for some time now, so this article was right up my alley... I suppose it's a little odd to claim that there were Calvinists a thousand years before Calvin was born, but hey, the Baptists claim an honorable pre-Reformation pedigreed! Why shouldn't Presbyterians have the same privilege? I don't really have anything to add, but I'll be watching the conversation... bump!

Actually, if you read the statements of the Culdee Presbyters carefully, you'll note that they are actually closer to Martin Luther's "strong" Predestinarian doctrine of total depravity, which holds that the Fall totally enslaved the human Free Will to sin.

Likewise the Waldensian Independents and AnaBaptists:

John Calvin's more nuanced "moderate" Predestinarian doctrine of total depravity, which affirms the Freedom of the Will while also affirming that All Natural Wants are depraved (thus man is free, but only wants to sin, and so sins freely), is essentially unknown to these pre-Reformation Christians.

Their doctrine of Total Depravity is the more simple doctrine of Luther: the Fall destroyed human Free Will, and now humans possess only a Sin-Enslaved Will.

For myself, I hold to the Calvinist view; but it is not exactly correct to call these Christians "Calvinists before Calvin". Their doctrines of Predestination ran more closely parallel to Luther's strong view of Predestination, than to Calvin's slightly more moderate view.

11 posted on 03/25/2002 8:56:37 AM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
Wesleyan Arminian Free Methodist Bump for later read
19 posted on 03/25/2002 9:53:45 AM PST by Revelation 911
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