Lord of the Rings Discussion Group (The Green Dragon Inn) II

Elen sila lumenn omentielvo, a star shines upon the hour of our meeting

Our story begins:

Fellowship of the Ring

PROLOGUE – Concerning Hobbits and other matters

We begin our story in the year 1401, according to the Shire reckoning, 59 years after Bilbo returns home from the adventure recounted in The Hobbit. Some history and events concerning hobbits and their habits are told in the Prologue. I think many would agree with my humble opinion that to fully adore our hobbits and their character, you cannot skip The Hobbit.

BOOK 1
Chapter I – A Long-Expected Party

When Mr. Bilbo Baggins of Bag End announced that he would shortly be celebrating his eleventy-first birthday with a party of special magnificence, there was much talk and excitement in Hobbiton.
Bilbo was very rich and very peculiar, and had been the wonder of the Shire for sixty years, ever since his remarkable disappearance and unexpected return. The riches he had brought back from his travels had now become a local legend, and it was popularly believed, whatever the old folk might say, that the Hill at Bag End was full of tunnels stuffed with treasure. And if that was not enough for fame, there was also his prolonged vigour to marvel at. Time wore on, but it seemed to have little effect on Mr. Baggins. At ninety he was much the same as at fifty. At ninety-nine they began to call him well-preserved; but unchanged would have been nearer the mark. There were some that shook their heads and thought this was too much of a good thing; it seemed unfair that anyone should possess (apparently) perpetual youth as well as (reputedly) inexhaustible wealth.
“It will have to be paid for,” they said. “It isn’t natural, and trouble will come of it!”…

The first questions was: Who are the hobbits? This is who the Hobbits and the Shire are to me:

It is easy to see pre-World War I England in both the Shire and the Hobbits. Things valued by rural England at the turn of the century are the same things valued by hobbits -- love of land, love of family, love for one another, and love of king and country. (In the Shire, the head of each family represents the king)

The danger England faced in both wars parallels the danger faced by the Shire. The reaction of Tolkien and his boyhood friends to that danger mirrors the reaction of Hobbits when confronted by the same danger. Both the soldier in the trenches of France and the Hobbits face a superior enemy with resolve and courage. They summon up strength they do not know they possess and do what has to be done to defend their home.

But in the first chapter, as we prepare for the party, we see the Hobbits and the Shire without the stormclouds of war on the horizen. What occupies their time are silly things. A birthday party, gossip, strained relations, and greedy relatives.

After 9/11, a columnist wrote that the last decade found America consumed with "petty" things. After 9/11, that changed. Everything was different. New definitions were imposed. (For example: now when I think of heros, I think of firefights and policemen running to their deaths at the WTC. I think of passengers calling home to say I love you before overpowering hi-jackers and driving a plane into the ground)

The Shire doesn't have the jadedness that '90's America had because Tolkien did not know those times. Instead it has the ease of country living. The values and the things that would preoccupy a society before "war and modernization" drove away the innocence and replaced it with cynicism.

In the first chapter, we see the Hobbits untried by danger, terror, fear, and war. When the important things in life was whether you would be invited to the big party or not.

That will change. The crucible of events will break them open and expose what lies at the heart of the race...but that is a future they can't even envision. In Chapter 1... the ring is just a bauble to make you invisible so you can hide from the Sackville-Baggins, Bilbo is 111, Frodo is 33, and Gandalf has come to visit.

21 posted on 2/15/02 8:42 AM Pacific by carton253

What I like is that Tolkien made the Hobbits so human. As Chapter One moves on - there is so much in the Hobbits that we can identify with. We may not hide when the horrid relation comes to the door, but we look at our caller ID and let the machine get it instead.

When reading The Hobbit, I knew the book worked on a much deeper level when not only Thorin died, but Fili and Kili also. I remember saying outloud... "Not Fili and Kili..." And crying... then laughing at myself for crying over dwarves!

Tolkien also has a wicked wit... and not only do his characters say funny things, but the situations they find themselves in are funny. Humor bypasses the head and goes straight to the heart.

At first, I didn't like the idea that Bilbo was going away. I didn't know if I would like this Frodo... but by giving Frodo a colorful supporting cast... causing us to like them and showing us Frodo through their eyes, Tolkien very adroitly weans us from Bilbo to Frodo and before we know it we are off on another adventure. Not with 13 grumpy dwarves, but with 4 Hobbits that we have come to like within the first chapter or two.

44 posted on 2/15/02 9:13 AM Pacific by carton253

Mae Govannen, Fast-I-Chû (HairOfTheDog). Splendid idea for a thread. I thought I'd offer some historical context for the first chapter by showing they way things are in 1401 SE (3001 of the Third Age):

As we know, Bilbo is turning 111 and Frodo will be 33. Aragorn is 70, Boromir is 23, Sam is 18, Merry is 19, Pippin is 11, Gimli is 222, and Legolas's age is unknown.

Sauron made a secret return to Mordor 59 years ago. Gollum hasn't been captured yet, so Sauron still thinks that the ring is at the bottom of the Anduin.

Saruman has had designs on the ring for the last 150 years. He still hides from the rest of the White Council that the knows where the ring was lost, and has been secretely searching for it.

Smeagol, AKA Gollum, first found the ring 538 years ago.

Gondor has been without a king for 1051 years.

47 posted on 2/15/02 9:29 AM Pacific by Romestamo

Notes on Hobbit government, from the Prologue...

…The Shire at this time had hardly any ‘government’. Families for the most part managed their own affairs. Growing food and eating it occupied most of their time…

...There remained, of course, the ancient tradition concerning the high king at Fornost, or Norbury as they called it, away north of the Shire. But there had been no king for nearly a thousand years, and even the ruins of Kings’ Norbury were covered with grass…. For they attributed to the king of old all their essential laws; and usually they kept the laws of free will, because they were The Rules (as they said), both ancient and just.

It is true that the Took family had long been pre-eminent; for the office of Thain had passed to them (from the Oldbucks) some centuries before, and the chief Took had borne that title ever since. The Thain was the master of the Shire-moot, and captain of the Shire-muster and the Hobbitry-in-arms, but as muster and moot were only held in times of emergency, which no longer occurred, the Thainship had ceased to be more than a nominal dignity…

Clearly, Tolkien felt that good people needed little government. There was also a Mayor at Michel Delving, who's only real function at this time was to preside at banquets. And also Shirrifs, who patrolled the border "to see that Outsiders of any kind, great or small, did not make themselves a nuisance" They were usually "more concerned with the straying of beasts than of people". Apparently even people who enjoyed pipeweed. Not to spoil the obvious fun in considering this weed, but Tolkien clearly states that the weed is "a variety probably of Nicotiana " (simple tobacco)

112 posted on 2/15/02 12:58 PM Pacific by HairOfTheDog

Thanks for posting this. I think Hobbits are sort of very idealized Humans. They have all our best qualities and few of our faults; perhaps some of them are gluttons, but not many. They're very interested in their own business and not the world outside. They leave other people alone, and other people leave them alone. Of course, they're being protected from bad things by the Rangers and Gandalf. Still, I think most of us would like to live in the Shire, as long as we could get some cable modems and broadband lines brought in. The Green Dragon Internet Cafe?

116 posted on 2/15/02 1:10 PM Pacific by JenB

I thought I'd kill two birds with one stone by flipping through the Letters.

Concerning Lobelia Sackville-Baggins, in a letter to Rayner Unwin dated 8 December 1955:

...My correspondence is now increased by letters of fury against the critics and the broadcast. One elderly lady - in part the model for 'Lobelia' indeed, though she does not suspect it - would I think certainly have set about Auden (and others) had they been in range of her umbrella...

Concerning Entwives, in a letter to Naomi Mitchison dated 25 April 1954:

I think that in fact the Entwives had disappeared for good, being destroyed with their gardens in the War of the Last Alliance (Second Age 3429-3441) when Sauron pursued a scorched earth policy and burned their land against the advance of the Allies down the Anduin... Some, of course, may have fled east, or even have becmoe enslaved: tyrants even in such tales must have an economic and agricultural background to their soldiers and metal-workers. If any survived so, they would indeed be far estranged from the Ents, and any rapprochement would be difficult - unless experience of industrialized and militarized agriculture had made them a little more anarchic. I hope so. I don't know.

And from a letter to Fr. Douglas Carter dated 6[?] June 1972:

...It is plain that there would be for Ents no re-union in 'history' - but Ents and their wives being rational creatures would find some 'earthly paradise' until the end of this world...

145 posted on 2/15/02 6:49 PM Pacific by Romestamo

CHAPTER II

The Shadow of the Past

Excerpts from our second chapter to get us going….

The talk did not die down in nine or even ninety days….
…“If only that dratted wizard will leave young Frodo alone, perhaps he’ll settle down and grow some hobbit-sense,” they said. And to all appearance the wizard did leave Frodo alone, and he did settle down, but the growth of hobbit-sense was not very noticeable. Indeed, he at once began to carry on Bilbo’s reputation for oddity…
…He lived alone, as Bilbo had done; but he had a good many friends, especially among the younger hobbits (mostly descendents of the Old Took) who had as children been fond of Bilbo and often in and out of Bag End…. His closest friends were Peregrin Took (usually called Pippin), and Merry Brandybuck (his real name was Meriadoc, but that was seldom remembered). Frodo went tramping all over the Shire with them; but more often he wandered by himself, and to the amazement of sensible folk he was sometimes seen far from home walking in the hills and woods under the starlight. Merry and Pippin suspected that he visited the Elves at times, as Bilbo had done…
…As time went on, people began to notice that Frodo also showed signs of good ‘preservation’: outwardly he retained the appearance of a robust and energetic hobbit just out of his tweens. “Some folk have all the luck,” they said; but it was not until Frodo approached the usually more sober age of fifty that they began to think it queer.
Frodo himself, after the first shock, found that being his own master and the Mr. Baggins of Bag End was rather pleasant. For some years he was quite happy and did not worry much about the future. But half unknown to himself the regret that he had not gone with Bilbo was steadily growing. He found himself wondering at times, especially in the autumn, about the wild lands, and strange visions of mountains that he had never seen came into his dreams. He began to say to himself: “Perhaps I shall cross the River myself one day.” To which the other half of his mind always replied: “Not yet”…

OK – Good Morning!!!

180 posted on 2/16/02 9:35 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog

A chapter per week was the plan, but Chapter I took less than 24 hours before the guests here began to wander... some chapters may take more time, some less... but these early chapters sort-of continue the same theme, so I think it is OK to continue on. Forgive me for not promising to hold to a schedule...

I am enjoying the detail and time Tolkien gave to developing the hobbit characters and the foreshadowing of the dark times to come before they set out. The film could not reasonably have been expected to do all that... A full 17 years passes between the party and the beginning of the journey... and I think it took Gandalf about two minutes to get our Frodo out the door in the film, although it was hinted that he had traveled far...

More excerpts:

…Frodo began to feel restless, and the old paths seemed to well-trodden. He looked at maps, and wondered what lay beyond their edges…. He took to wandering further afield and more often by himself; and Merry and his other friends watched him anxiously. Often he was seen walking and talking with the strange wayfarers that began at this time to appear in the Shire….
…Elves, who seldom walked in the Shire, could now be seen passing westward through the woods in the evening, passing and not returning…
...Frodo often met strange dwarves of far countries, seeking refuge in the West. They were troubled, and some spoke in whispers of the Enemy and of the Land of Mordor...

185 posted on 2/16/02 10:14 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog

Ooooh, Chapter 2. Great! I remember the first time I read LOTR. This chapter got me hooked.

"You have not seen him," Gandalf broke in. [referring to Gollum]
"No, and I don't want to," said Frodo. "I can't understand you. Do you mean to say that you, and the Elves, have let him live on after all those horrible deeds? No at any rate he is as bad as an Orc, and just an enemy. He deserves death."
"Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement....snip....And he is bound up with the fate of the Ring. My heart tells me that he has some part to play yet, for good or ill, before the end; and when that comes, the pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many--yours not least..."

At first, I was disappointed that this section was transposed to the Mines of Moria. But after subsequent viewings, it has that kind of gut-wrenching impact, so close to Gandalf's fall and hearing Gollum's footsteps.

186 posted on 2/16/02 10:14 AM Pacific by Carolina

Another Freeper (and I apologize, but I can't remember who) pointed out that by putting the story of the Last Alliance in the movie's prologue, the movie changed the tone of the book. In the book, the innocent cheeriness of the first chapter is undiluted by any knowledge of the Shadow until the second, giving us a steady progression from light into the darkness that hangs over the rest of the books. In the movie, on the other hand, we have a "light sandwich," with only a brief enjoyment of the ideal life of the Shire placed between the prologue and Gandalf's search for answers.

That's not a criticism of the movie, really, just an observation of the difference a small change in format can make to the tone.

Yours in Truth,

188 posted on 2/16/02 10:20 AM Pacific by Buggman

A lot of the background from Chapter 2 was moved around to other parts of the story for the film, like all of the history at the beginning of the film... we did not learn about any of that until Chapter 2 or Rivendell. My review posted here from the first time I saw the film complained a bit that the dark forces were brought out so early and vividly in the film. I loved most of all the innocence at the beginning of this story, and the foreshadowing that begins in hints and whispers. Tolkien had a gift for that, but Jackson's way works too... most people would not have been satisfied, I guess to see Frodo and Gandalf sit around that table for two hours and spell it out slowly... though some of us would have.

189 posted on 2/16/02 10:26 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog

That is interesting--they took the story that Gandalf related in Chapter 2 and placed in the very beginning with Galadriel telling the story instead. It does make a huge difference, because in the book the shadow and threat of what is to come creeps slowly onto the idyllic scene. The reader slowly becomes aware of the gravity of the threat, rather than having it presented full-force right at the start. Something that a book can do where a movie can't necessarily present as successfully...

There was an awful lot of care and thought put into how a story is told in a movie setting as opposed to on the printed page. I'm amazed at how well they balanced their faithfulness to the story with the necessity of adapting it to an entirely different medium.

-penny

193 posted on 2/16/02 10:34 AM Pacific by Penny1

I think the most important thing in Chapter 2 is the establishment of Sam's character before the journey began. Frodo may be the ringbearer, but Sam is just as much the protagonist. The way that the journey changes him is one of the best aspects of the book.

In this chapter, Sam let's Sandyman walk all over him at the Green Dragon and has such little understanding of Gandalf as to believe Gandalf would turn him into "something unnatural." And, last but not least, his feelings about embarking on this important journey can be summed up as "Me go and see Elves and all! Hooray!"

195 posted on 2/16/02 10:38 AM Pacific by Romestamo

After our little chat on the "other thread" about how Sam reminds us sometimes of a faithful golden retriever, I cracked up totally at this line:

[Gandalf speaking to Samwise]"You shall go away with Mr. Frodo!" "Me sir!" cried Sam, springing up like a dog invited for a walk. "Me go and see Elves and all! Hooray!" he shouted, and then burst into tears.

Sam is such a dear....

-penny

196 posted on 2/16/02 10:39 AM Pacific by Penny1

I think it is interesting that Merry, rather than Sam, is given the first emphasis in Frodo's circle of friends... Merry accompanying him on his long walks, Sam defending him from the Green Dragon, but introduced as an employee, rather than a close friend. I wonder sometimes if Tolkien’s view of the roles the characters would eventually play was still developing in his own mind as he wrote.

199 posted on 2/16/02 10:48 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog

I noticed that too--both Merry and Pippin were singled out as being Frodo's closest friends while Sam is never mentioned in such terms. And you're right, Merry is the one who is the most involved in Frodo's life. Yet we are given many more glimpses of Sam than we are of M&P at this point--he is more fully developed as a character, as if we're being well set up for him to be the one whose life is most closely bound to Frodo's.

Perhaps the idea is that while Merry and Pippin became Frodo's friends during the peaceful years before the mission begins, Frodo's and Sam's friendship is forged in the trials and hardships of the mission itself. And it is their friendship that makes the biggest impact on the story.

There is also a great deal of "class consciousness" that underpins the story--Merry and Pippin are seen as Frodo's equals in class, while Sam is on a lower rung of society...at the beginning of the story...

-penny

200 posted on 2/16/02 11:01 AM Pacific by Penny1

For some reason, this excerpt really got me thinking:

Frodo says, "I feel that as long as the Shire lies behind, safe and comfortable, I shall find wandering more bearable: I shall know that somewhere there is a firm foothold, even if my feet cannot stand there again."

Was this part of the story written while Tolkien's son was away from home? I was remembering reading somewhere that some of the book was written while his son was away, and it doesn't take much to substitute England for The Shire to get a sense of some of what The Shire represented to Tolkien in real life.... Love of one's country is indeed a powerful thing.

-penny

202 posted on 2/16/02 11:06 AM Pacific by Penny1

According to the Foreword, The Shadow of the Past is one of the oldest parts and was written way before 1939.

203 posted on 2/16/02 11:14 AM Pacific by Overtaxed

Love of one's country is indeed a powerful thing

True, and that love drives many of our main characters doesn't it? - and that in Frodo's case leaving it behind might be the only thing that saves it. "I should like to save the Shire, if I could - though there have been times when I thought the inhabitants too stupid and dull for words, and have felt that an earthquake or an invasion of dragons might be good for them. But I don't feel like that now..." from the same passage you quoted. If he left, perhaps the evil would pass around the Shire and leave with him.

204 posted on 2/16/02 11:16 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog

I did manage to read the section on The Rings of Power from the Silmarillion last night, and one thing jumped out at me in particular. Gandalf's ring was the Ring of Fire. The name conjured up for me the image of his battle with the balrog in Moria, but that is not at all the emphasis presented in "The Rings of Power." Instead, the Ring of Fire which Gandalf possesses increases his ability to enflame the hearts of others to heroic deeds. Hence his ability to spark in the hobbits their drive and commitment to performing great acts of heroism beyond any that they themselves would beleive possible. I think about how each time one of them steps out, it is Gandalf who is present to spur them on--Frodo and Sam at the beginning, Merry and Pippin later on in the story. All who accept Gandalf's leadership arrive at greater achievements than they believe are even possible, all because of his encouragement and influence.

Just knowing that bit about the Ring of Fire really opened my eyes to Gandalf's role, particularly in how it worked itself out in his relationships with all the characters in the story.

"Take now this Ring," he [Círdan] said; "for thy labours and thy cares will be heavy, but in all it will support thee and defend thee from weariness. For this is the Ring of Fire, and herewith, maybe, thou shalt rekindle hearts to the valour of old in a world that grows chill."

-penny

207 posted on 2/16/02 11:24 AM Pacific by Penny1

Why, do you suppose, the fact that Gandalf bears one of the rings of power was hidden from us, buried in the Silmarillian (and only briefly mentioned one other place). Is this a prize withheld by Tolkien on purpose, one of the hidden layers to be learned only by "varsity" geeks that chose to study further?

209 posted on 2/16/02 11:31 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog

The ring Narya is undoubtedly what Gandalf is refering to when he calls himself the wielder of the flame of Anor (Anor, apart from being an older name for Minas Tirith, also means the sun). Conversely, the balrog is a servant of the flame of Udûn (Udûn is the name of a region in Mordor, but etymologically means "bad darkness," or something along those lines).

212 posted on 2/16/02 11:40 AM Pacific by Romestamo

Oh, and one other thing. That Círdan gave the ring to Olórin (Gandalf) and not to Curunír (Saruman) is considered the source for the grudge that Saruman has always had against Gandalf.

213 posted on 2/16/02 11:45 AM Pacific by Romestamo

While it may be stating the obvious, I think we should take the time to at least hear this again, lest anyone wonder later if the ring could ever be saved....

"A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades... Yes, sooner or later - later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last - sooner or later the dark power will devour him".
"Bilbo knew no more than he told you, I am sure," said Gandalf. "He would certainly never have passed on to you anything that he thought would be a danger, even though I promised to look after you. He thought the ring was very beautiful, and very useful at need; and if anything was wrong or queer, it was himself..."

The ring cannot be possessed by even the pure of purpose for long without the evil turning him, and Bilbo is absolved from guilt for the "dirty trick" inflicted on poor Frodo.

214 posted on 2/16/02 11:52 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog

Spoilers from Return of The King included below:

I'm not sure, but it's emphasized in that chapter of The Silmarillion that he was not revealed as possessing a ring of power until he left Middle Earth...i.e., when we see him leave with Frodo at the end of Return of The King. I think perhaps it is hidden from us because it is also hidden from the rest of the characters. And as to what the ring actually does, I think that is the case with all of the rings of the elves. Without digging deeper, we don't really find out that much...I think perhaps Tolkien was holding out some things for those who would want to dig deeper.

None of the rings of the elves were mentioned in much detail as to their purpose in The Lord of The Rings, and only Galdriel's Nenya was mentioned or displayed at all until we reach the very end of the tale. But I think Tolkien does that--hides certain things from view, yet having them in mind behind the scenes so to speak. In some ways, I think it is a reward for the reader, it's as if he's saying, "keep reading....there are yet more secrets in store...."

-penny

215 posted on 2/16/02 11:55 AM Pacific by Penny1

Okay, back to Chapter 2.

Here is Gandalf keeping his promise to Bilbo about keeping an eye on Frodo:

Then he paid Frodo a brief visit, and after taking a good look at him he went off again. During the next year or two he had turned up fairly often, coming unexpectedly after dusk, and going off without warning before sunrise. He would not discuss his own business and journeys, and seemed chiefly interested in small news about Frodo's health and doings.
[Nine years later......]
They looked hard at one another.
"All well eh?" said Gandalf. "You look the same as ever, Frodo!"
"So do you," Frodo replied; but secretly he thought that Gandalf looked older and more careworn. He pressed him for news of himself and of the wide world...

Something's afoot. Right before this we see Sam talking about the High Elves leaving, "Sailing, sailing, sailing over the sea."

I simply don't understand why people think Tolkien's prose is overbearing.

216 posted on 2/16/02 12:02 PM Pacific by Carolina

I think you hit on it... If, after all, Gandalf's role is to inspire the hearts of people to valor, then it should be subtle, a mentoring that leads the hero to his own decision. For the hero to have known that there was a greater power at work could lead the reader to think that Gandalf was driving people through trickery, no more noble than Saruman's voice.

And yet Gandalf says "There are other forces at work besides the will of evil, and that is an encouraging thought" Clearly Gandalf is once again saying mysterious things without explaining all of their meanings, unless we dig deeper.

217 posted on 2/16/02 12:05 PM Pacific by HairOfTheDog

Good point. My opinion has always been that Gandalf looked more careworn because of all the work that went into capturing and interrogating Gollum, as well as general stress from worry that the ring is the One Ring.

As for the departing elves, I have a bit of sympathy for them. Most of them were undoubtedly around when they went through so much trouble to defeat Sauron a first time (and some maybe still from the battles with Morgoth), and the knowledge that he was returning stronger than ever would make me want to up and quit, too.

218 posted on 2/16/02 12:08 PM Pacific by Romestamo

I also thought it was encouraging how Gandalf said that Bilbo would be all right, that the ring would have no serious lasting effect on him. In fact, Bilbo came out of the whole affair much more "whole" than Frodo.

The scene where Frodo and Gandalf talk about destroying the ring, and seeing how difficult it would be, is quite sobering. Particularly, Gandalf saying "I could not 'make' you [destroy it]--except by force, which would break your mind." I found myself thinking that it was likely this was what was being hinted at in the movie when Frodo reacts in such pain at Gimli striking the ring with his axe. Yikes.

The significance of Bilbo "giving" the ring to Frodo is fascinating to me too. I believe this is the only instance up to that point of the history of The Ring of Power of anyone "giving" the One Ring to anyone--always before it was attained through violence or through trickery and through the ring's own choosing. But in Bilbo giving the ring to Frodo, the ring's power to choose its bearer is further broken. How crucial it was that Bilbo have the strength of will to give it up!

-penny

219 posted on 2/16/02 12:14 PM Pacific by Penny1

As for the departing elves, I have a bit of sympathy for them. Most of them were undoubtedly around when they went through so much trouble to defeat Sauron a first time (and some maybe still from the battles with Morgoth), and the knowledge that he was returning stronger than ever would make me want to up and quit, too.

Some of the more obscure writings of Tokien give more profound reasons for the Elves bailing out of Middle Earth.

Over millennia the fire of their “souls,” which are inherently free of evil, begin to cause a “fading” of their bodies, which are inevitably tainted with the evil introduced into all matter by Melkor, the master of Sauron. All of Middle Earth was, in a sense, the “Ring” of Melkor. Even after his destruction the matter of Middle Earth did not fit very well with the souls of the Elves, which led to a growing disquiet and desire to escape to Aman, the only place they could live at peace.

222 posted on 2/16/02 12:27 PM Pacific by Restorer

The ring Narya is undoubtedly what Gandalf is refering to when he calls himself the wielder of the flame of Anor (Anor, apart from being an older name for Minas Tirith, also means the sun).

There may be a deeper meaning. In some of Tolkien’s more obscure (later) works, the sun is a female Maiar, Anor, who is given by Varda a light (secret fire?) direct from Iluvatar that is uncontaminated by Melkor’s evil. Melkor angrily attacks and rapes Anor, who flees. Perhaps the “secret fire of Anor” is the source of the power of all the Istari, who are emissaries of the Valar to assist those who are fighting Sauron.

This meaning would take the “secret fire” back to the original Music of the Ainur, a great many millennia before the Rings were made. This would tie in with the light that is seen “leaking” from around Gandalf, especially after he returns as the White. Perhaps while dead in Aman, he is given greater access to or power over the Fire.

224 posted on 2/16/02 12:39 PM Pacific by Restorer

Good point. Gandalf, as a Maiar, is not OF Arda (the World) in the same sense that Elves and Men are. He is of an order of beings that existed before Arda and in a real sense actually made Arda. Thus the death of a Maiar can be expected to be handled differently than Elves, who go to the Halls of Mandos till they are reincarnated, or Men, who go there briefly before leaving the Circles of the World.

Your theory would be of a piece with the power, which Tolkien constantly emphasizes, of Iluvatar to introduce wild cards (miracles, if you will) outside of the normal course of event. The Destruction of Numenor and removal of Aman from Earth near the end of the Second Age is the classic example of this.

226 posted on 2/16/02 1:13 PM Pacific by Restorer

One of my favorite aspects that first arises in this chapter is the power language and words.

"I cannot read the fiery letters," said Frodo in a quavering voice.
"No," said Gandalf, "but I can. The letters are Elvish, of an ancient mode, but the language is that of Mordor, which I will not utter here."

Merely speaking of evil will empower it, and conversely, speaking of good will drive evil away. For example, there is Frodo's use of "O Elbereth! Gilthoniel!" on Weathertop.

227 posted on 2/16/02 3:14 PM Pacific by ecurbh

Thank you for this thread. Tolkein's the greatest writer of the 20th Century in my book, and that just might be too light a praise. In Jr. HS and before, I read all of Tolkein's works over and over again and I've recently rediscovered the books with the release of the first movie. I haven't yet had time to read the thread in its entirety and I've only just discovered it, but I'd love to participate as I have time.

Amazing all the details one remembers after nearly two decades and it's been a delight rediscovering forgotten details (having now re-read all of the Lord of the Rings). I'll read Silmarillian again when time permits. I lost all interest in Fantasy before High School since none of the other writers ever created anything approaching Tolkein, notwithstanding their efforts to. Alas that Tolkein, being as we of the lesser, and later Men, did not have the longevity of the first Numenorians, or better, of the Eldar.

Warmest regards and thanks again.

228 posted on 2/16/02 3:45 PM Pacific by fire and forget

It is an excerpt from the complete poem about the rings of power:

Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
One Ring to rule them all. One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

236 posted on 2/16/02 5:18 PM Pacific by ecurbh

Thankfully, we aren't subjected to much of this tongue in the Lord of the Rings.

Elrond certainly was freaked out:

"Never before has any voice dared to utter words of that tongue in Imladris, Gandalf the Grey."

But Gandalf was unapologetic.

It's like he was saying, "Better get used to it, 'cuz if that dude Sauron wins, you're gonna hear it in every corner."

238 posted on 2/16/02 5:26 PM Pacific by Carolina

I can't even read it and smile, let alone try to speak it... It does reek evil doesn't it? And the elvish language is so beautiful. Tolkien was a true poet to capture the soul of language to the point where he could create terror or beauty from the sound of the language itself, without any meaning being necessary to understand the message. And of course, he was thorough enough, that if you wanted to, you could dig deeper and understand it as well.

239 posted on 2/16/02 5:28 PM Pacific by HairOfTheDog

I pointed out to someone earlier that Sindarin, the language of the Grey-Elves, had roughly the phonological characteristics of British-Welsh, because it fit their epic history, which reads like Old-English legend.

Perhaps more interesting is Quenya, the high Elven tongue. Because its place in Middle-Earth is that of the language of knowledge and history, it is in someways very similar to Latin, such as in syntactically. It gains it truly beautiful, flowing style from a special blend of Finnish, Latin, and Greek.

240 posted on 2/16/02 5:35 PM Pacific by Romestamo

Anor, apart from being an older name for Minas Tirith, also means the sun

This is off the subject, but I have to ask something. Sir SuziQ and I had talked about building a new house and giving it a name. Since we wanted it to be on a hill and to incorporate passive solar, we thought Sunny Hill would be nice. When we went to see the movie, we began to wonder what that would translate into in 'Elvish'. I looked on a website and found that 'Amon' was hill and 'Nar' was sun, but that was Quenyan. Where did you find 'Anor'? "Amon Anor" does sound nice!

Sheesh! Are we Tolkien geeks or what!!?

245 posted on 2/16/02 5:56 PM Pacific by SuziQ

It does make you wonder, doesn't it?

I find myself wondering if perhaps Gandalf expected or hoped that Frodo would eventually mature and grow in his ability to resist the pull of the ring. In many ways, he does--for example, (MORE SPOILERS) he manages to keep from wearing the ring when the Nazgûl come close to him just outside Minus Morgul.

Also, I wonder if Gandalf never believed that Frodo and Sam would be made to go to Mordor all alone without himself or others of the Fellowship to help him.

I suppose it's all wrapped up in his statement, "Even the very wise cannot see all ends...."

I read a great review of the movie that summed up the idea of the story that the entire task seems entirely hopeless...and grows more and more hopeless as the story progresses. Until at the last, success of ANY kind seems utterly impossible....and yet...success is achieved. It's all about doing the right thing and having faith that it will somehow be enough no matter how impossible it looks.

-penny

250 posted on 2/16/02 6:16 PM Pacific by Penny1

I think it is interesting that Merry, rather than Sam, is given the first emphasis in Frodo's circle of friends...

Frodo doesn't hang out with Sam the way he does with Merry and Pippin. I think that although Frodo is fond of Sam, they are not all that close. After all, you don't hear the Gamgee's being mentioned at all during the Party (they weren't part of the Gross) so I believe they "running" things. Frodo knows how Sam likes hearing about Elves, but he never takes him along on his wanderings to meet any of them.

At the end of Chapter 2 it seems that Frodo hasn't realized how devoted Sam is:

"He won't hurt you," said Frodo, hardly able to keep from laughing, although he was himself startled and rather puzzled.

254 posted on 2/16/02 6:36 PM Pacific by Overtaxed

Thanks, HOTDog, for adding my name to the Fellowship of the Ping; I'll do my best not to slow the group down on the long journey ahead.

Prompted by the popularity of the LOTR movie in the US (I'm in Japan), I just recently picked up the series for the first time in twenty years, and I'm slightly past the halfway point of The Two Towers now. The movie hasn't arrived here yet; it's scheduled to open in theaters on 2 March, though there will be a late night/early morning preview showing this coming Saturday. Since the movie will not end until after train and subway service stop, it'll be an all-night affair...I guess we'll know then who the real Tolkien fans are.

Despite Tolkien's fame in the English-speaking world, none of my Japanese friends had even heard of LOTR prior to seeing the TV ads for the movie, though the Lord of the Rings series, The Hobbit, and The Silmarillion have been available in Japanese for some years now, and such texts as The Atlas of Middle Earth can be found alongside them in bookstores. Most bookstores of any decent size have the entire LOTR series displayed prominently (right next to the Harry Potter books), and Tolkien is likely to gain a considerable number of new fans on this side of the Pacific once the movie arrives.

I actually went out and bought the Japanese-language versions of The Hobbit and the first two volumes of the paperback LOTR today -- hey, if you think three volumes of Tolkien in English is daunting, try nine volumes (albeit not very thick ones) in translation! -- and, if this discussion group doesn't tear through chapters like Ents through stone, I might try to keep up. For those most unquenchably curious hobbits out there, the first volume of LOTR is entitled Tabi no Nakama in Japanese, which translates as "Traveling Companions."

Has anyone else out there read LOTR in translation? I think it might be interesting to discuss some of the differences between the original English version and translated versions -- including variations in literary style, approaches taken to convey dialects, the care taken to maintain the rhyme and rhythm of the poetry/songs, etc. Having skimmed through the Japanese books I bought today, it struck me just how much of Tolkien's appeal lies in his use of language and not simply in the ripping good yarns he tells.

279 posted on 2/17/02 2:12 AM Pacific by The_Expatriate

Well, looks like you guys have been having fun! I've spent my time away thinking about what exactly I should talk about, and figuring out what should be discussed in more depth later, so here goes.

At the end of the First Age in Middle-Earth, the host of the Valar (demigods, basically) overthrew Morgoth, who was a very powerful evil spirit. Morgoth had been ruling Middle-Earth and warring with the Elves and some Men for a very long time. Morgoth basically equals Satan.

Anyway, Morgoth was defeated, and as a reward, the Men who had fought with the Elves were given an island out between Middle-Earth and the Blessed Realms. The island was called Numenor, and sometimes Westernesse, which is how it is referred to in the chapter we are disussing. The men of Numenor were taught many things by the Elves.

Now, Morgoth's chief servant was Sauron. When Morgoth was defeated, he surrendered, but later he fled and hid himself. Slowly he began to gather power to himself, but nobody knew about it. Then he came to the Elves of Eregion (also called Hollin) and the Rings of Power were made. He had a hand in making most of them, but not the Elven-Rings. Celebrimbor the Elf-Smith did not trust Sauron. (This probably goes way back to the problems Feanor had with Morgoth over the Silmarils; Celebrimbor was Feanor's grandson. I can give you more details on this if you need it.) Anyway, the Elf-rings were hidden from Sauron, and so the One Ring, which Sauron soon forged, had less power over them.

Sauron, as we all know, forged the Ring in Orodruin - Mt. Doom. Part of the reason he settled in Mordor was because of Mt Doom, but he also increased its powers. It's not your average volcano.

While all this is going on in Middle-Earth, over in Numenor the kings are becoming more proud and forgetting their roots. Although the kings are descended from Elros Half-Elven, brother of Elrond and the child of Earendil and Elwing, the laws of Numenor are becoming increasingly hard on elf-friends. Then Ar-Pharazon the Golden comes to the throne. He is the proudest king of all, and he takes his army to Middle-Earth and forces Sauron to swear fealty. Sauron is taken back to Numenor as a captive - but he has the Ring. Ar-Pharazon falls under Sauron's power, and the Numenoreans turn to darkness.

Finally, the Valar destroy Numenor because Ar-Pharazon tries to make war on Aman. Numenor is swallowed by the sea. However, one family, descendants of Elros and still loyal to the Elves, escapes. Elendil and his sons Isildur and Anarion flee, with nine ships full of people and treasures- seven stars and seven stones and one white tree.

Elendil founds the North-Kingdom of Arnor, and his sons rule together in Gondor. They build the great city of Osgiliath, the watch-city of Minas Isil, and the white city, Minas Anor.

Then comes the Last Alliance. Sauron had escaped the destruction of Numenor, though he was weakened, and now seeing his evil, Men and Elves banded together. The great Elf-King, Gil-Galad, lead his people, and Elendil led the armies of Men, and they fought. Elendil and Gil-Galad defeated Sauron, but they perished doing so. Then Isildur took the Ring from Sauron's hand, as wergild for his dead father and brother.

One thing that you may not realize from the movie is how few people knew that Isildur took the Ring. Although it's not made clear until the Council of Elrod, I think I can talk about it here. In the last duel between Sauron and Elendil and Gil-Galad, there weren't many spectators; just Isildur, Elrond, and Cirdan. (Incidentally Gil-Galad originally had one of the Rings; when he died, it went to Elrond.) So only those three knew the truth of what had happened; and Isildur died two years later, ambushed by Orcs. He did write the famous parchment in Minas Tirith but apparently nobody knew about it.

Is there anything else anyone would like to know about this period?

296 posted on 2/17/02 11:01 AM Pacific by JenB

Incidentally I wanted to say that I'm working on a site to summarize the history, for quick reference or what not. You already know that but I wanted to get the address out there for other people. It's here. I've finished summarizing the First Age, the age of legends, which doesn't much come into LotR, other than a few mentions of the Silmarils and Beren and Luthien - oh, and Earendil, of course. So for people who have yet to read Sil., this is available.

303 posted on 2/17/02 11:32 AM Pacific by JenB

Because, um - well, there were seven 'fathers of the Dwarves' that resulted in seven Dwarf families. So maybe each family got one ring? And then the Men got nine, I don't know why. Because the Elf-Smiths liked us better than they liked the Dwarves? Part of a plot started by Sauron?

The great rings (the three, seven, nine and One) weren't the only ones, you know. There were lesser rings, but we don't really know anything about them. I think it might be that each ring was originally made for a particular person. The elf-rings went to Galadril, Cirdan, and Gil-Galad, the three greatest Elves this side of the sea. The Seven presumably went to various Dwarf kings, since one belonged to the line of kings that were Thorin's ancestors. As for the Nine, it's possible that they were made for nine great Men of the time. We don't really know. At least I don't, maybe the answer is in one of the "History of Middle-Earth" books that I haven't read.

317 posted on 2/17/02 3:41 PM Pacific by JenB

Everything looks correct, but there's one thing you left out that should be explained. The first time that Sauron tried to raise an army, the men of Westernesse were still mostly good, and they raised a gigantic army that dwarfed Sauron's and brought it to Middle Earth. Sauron abased himself, and with his silver toungue work his way into a position of influence in Numenor. So while the Numenorians were becoming greedy and speaking against the ban keeping mortals out of Aman, they were also participating in Morgoth worship guided by Sauron.

325 posted on 2/17/02 8:37 PM Pacific by Romestamo

"I thought that at this point, Gandalf expected to be with Frodo and would help him give up the ring the same way he helped Bilbo. '

I am not sure about that. Frodo was chosen because he was a Hobbit. While they are small people, they are very happy people, with lots of good memories. They are also, wholesome people, not devious, not nasty, not desirous of power - the qualities which Sauron and Saruman use to deceive and ensnare people to their will. Like the saying goes - you cannot cheat an honest man and Frodo and Hobbits in general were honest people.

328 posted on 2/17/02 9:11 PM Pacific by gore3000

seven stars and seven stones and one white tree

What are the seven stars? are these the Silmarils? What are they? I know of the seven stones, I believe these are the Palantir, and the white tree, which was planted but has withered (we learn later) in Gondor.

331 posted on 2/18/02 8:15 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog

Well, the seven stars are not the Silmarils - there were only three of them and by this time, only the one that Earendil wears is still around. I'm not entirely sure what the seven stars are. Possibly some jewels - after all, Isildur does wear a jewel on his forehead. The seven stones, yes, are the palantiri, and the white tree is the one that got planted at Minas Tirith.

332 posted on 2/18/02 8:49 AM Pacific by JenB

They are also, wholesome people, not devious, not nasty, not desirous of power

I'm glad you said that! I've been thinking about it all day (things are kind of slow here at work.) Gandalf says that Bilbo escaped the ring's evil because he began his ownership with pity for Gollum. Frodo resists the corruption because he didn't covet the ring in the first place. Of course being a hobbit helped because, as you said, the are wholesome people...not desirous of power.

Then I thought about Smeagol who was a "curious-minded" hobbit-like creature. According to Gandalf, the reason Smeagol turned into Gollum is that he started his ownership by murdering to get it. So being "hobbit-like" didn't save him (especially since he used the ring to be nasty in general.) It did, however, leave him with at least a hope of being cured.

338 posted on 2/18/02 1:40 PM Pacific by Overtaxed

Elves do have pointy ears, but Lord of the Rings certainly is ambiguous. The best evidence is in The Etymologies, where the root for "leaf" and "ear" in Elvish are identical, and Tolkien writes: "The Quendian ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped than..." and then what follows illegible, but it probably says "human".

342 posted on 2/18/02 2:58 PM Pacific by Romestamo

Yeah, making the Ring so malevolent was a really good choice on the part of Jackson. Partly I would guess he didn't want 'newbies' arguing that the Ring could be used to destroy Sauron. He had to balance so much between the fans and the outsiders, making sure that the fans didn't get bored with long discussions of why the Ring must be destroyed - we all know that already! - but not leaving the newcomers wondering why these dudes are, like, so afraid of jewelry, man. (I'm refering to those people who think the Hobbits are smoking anything but tobacco!)

348 posted on 2/18/02 6:11 PM Pacific by JenB

Is he part elf?

He has Elvish blood in him. He is descended from Elros who was Elrond's brother.

They were Half-Elven and were given the choice of being Elven or Man.

Elrond chose to be Elven and Elros chose to be Man. Aragorn was his descendant.

When Aragorn and Arwen married, the two lines were re-united.

349 posted on 2/18/02 6:18 PM Pacific by Carolina

I remember reading that the nine were various Northern Chieftans, but I don't think any of them are named (We know a few of their names after becoming Nazgûl, but I hardly think that a self respecting Arnorien man would call himself "Gothmog".).

Quite impossible. The Great Rings were made around the year 1500 of the Second Age. Arnor was founded around 3320 of the same Age.

It is quite possible that one or more of the Nine were Dunedain in ancestry, from those who returned to Middle Earth during the Second Age. Remember that Sauron deceived those who took the Rings. There was not necessarily anything evil about the Nine Rings at the time their Ringbearers took them up. Sauron made the One Ring after the others and thereby corrupted them.

The Elves escaped because they refused to wear or use their Rings while Sauron held the One. The Dwarves were not totally corrupted because they were unusually resistant to being dominated. Men were not as discerning as the Elves and were more susceptible than the Dwarves. The nine kings were not necessarily originally evil, which just adds to the pathos and horror of their present condition.

355 posted on 2/19/02 9:02 PM Pacific by Restorer

Of course, thanks for setting me straight.

I went back and reread some stuff, and it turns out there's only one Nazgûl to whose origin is alluded, and that's in The Hunt for the Ring in Unfinished Tales. Khamûl, the second in command, is known as the "Black Easterling." This might only be a reference to his habitation as a Nazgûl, but I prefer the other interpretation, because it gives our first glimpse of who the nine originally were.

356 posted on 2/20/02 3:55 AM Pacific by Romestamo

By the way, Gothmog was also the name of the chief Balrog. He was slain at the destruction of Gondolin by an Elf-lord, Ecthelion of the Fountain, who died in the fight. No wonder the Lieutenant of Minas Morgul liked the name!

358 posted on 2/20/02 5:04 AM Pacific by JenB

It’s a dangerous business… going out of your door.
You step into the Road, and if you don’t keep your feet,
there is no knowing where you might be swept off to.

Fellowship of the Ring

CHAPTER III

Three is Company

Hello to everyone who has joined us so far! And thanks to all the historians who provided all the background for Shadow of the Past. I know I certainly know a lot more than I did before!

In this chapter, Frodo knows now that the enemy Sauron has learned the ring was found. Frodo must leave the Shire. Gandalf sets out to seek advice from Saruman, the head of his order, but promises to return in time to accompany him on the road. They decide to head to Rivendell, but from there the road is unclear. Frodo sells Bag End and buys a house at Crickhollow in Buckland, and keeps secret his plans to leave the Shire for good. He does not even tell his close friends Merry and Pippin he has no intention of living at Crickhollow, only Sam. When Gandalf fails to return on schedule, the hobbits set out on their journey alone and guideless. They leave Hobbiton only barely in the nick of time. Mysterious black riders have entered the Shire, asking about a halfling named Baggins.

Excerpts from our chapter to get us going….

”You ought to go quietly, and you ought to go soon,” said Gandalf. Two or three weeks had passed, and still Frodo made no sign of getting ready to go…
…To tell the truth, he was very reluctant to start, now that it had come to the point. Bag End seemed a more desirable residence than it had for years, and he wanted to savour as much as he could of this last summer in the Shire. When autumn came, he knew that part at least of his heart would think more kindly of journeying, as it always did at that season. He had indeed privately made up his mind to leave on his fiftieth birthday… He thought as little as possible about the Ring, and where it might lead him in the end. But he did not tell all this thoughts to Gandalf. What the wizard guessed was always difficult to tell.
He looked at Frodo and smiled. “Very well,” he said. “I think that will do – but it must not be any later. I am getting very anxious. In the mean-while, do take care, and don’t let out any hint of where you are going! And see that Sam Gamgee does not talk. If he does, I really shall turn him into a toad.”
“As for where I am going,” said Frodo, “it would be difficult to give that away, for I have no clear idea myself, yet.”…..

Good Morning! - Movie Pictures – Chapter III

Map of the Shire

362 posted on 2/22/02 8:50 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog

Things I get out of this chapter:

Frodo does not think that he will return from this quest. "Bilbo went to find a treasure, there and back again; but I go to lose one, and not return, as far as I can see." Makes his heroism all the more so, I think. This theme is continued as they go; "I wonder if I shall ever look down into that valley again", Frodo thinks as he takes his last glance down at Hobbiton.

Selling Bag-End to the Sackville-Bagginses! How that must have hurt Frodo. I am glad they drank all the Old Winyards before leaving, though.

The Black Riders are scary. Part of it, I think is the way they're so slowly revealed. Frodo doesn't know what they are, and neither do we - we just know that we don't want Frodo to get caught, and we don't want him to wear the Ring either.

I like the Elf bits. We get some of those glimpses of legends and histories beyond the books - Elbereth, Finrod, the exiles. We also get an Elvish lesson - elen sila lumenn omentielvo - a star shines upon the hour of our meeting. Good to know how to greet an Elf! Of course, Gildor really helps out the hobbits, by sending news of their traveling to Rivendell. Otherwise they might not have had the help along the way.

I think we get some very good insights into the characters of Frodo, Sam, and Pippin. Sam's already devoted to Frodo. Pippin's light-hearted, perhaps too carefree for such a journey. He has some growing up to do! And Frodo loves the Shire very much. He's willing to give up anything to save it.

364 posted on 2/22/02 9:11 AM Pacific by JenB

I think Tolkien has given Frodo very mixed feelings... He doesn't really want to go, (but he wants to see Bilbo). He doesn't really understand the magnitude of the danger, (but he left on schedule anyway, even though Gandalf had not returned) Though he may speak of the danger, Frodo has nothing in his experience to tell him how afraid he should really be. Perhaps until the first rider is seen, and even then, he does not know enough to comprehend. They are having a nice pleasant walk so far, and only Frodo's quiet mumblings about not returning might betray his secret to the others.

And if Frodo does not understand the magnitude, how could Sam? - And Pippin, well, what does Pippin know? (snicker) He is just having a good time.

367 posted on 2/22/02 10:04 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog

Frodo has nothing in his experience to tell him how afraid he should really be.

In one statement, you have summed up the heart of these hobbits. They have never faced danger... They respond with the hearts of lions.

In this day and age of action heros who are never afraid, it is easy to believe that fear=weakness. But these hobbits are the bravest of the brave. Aragorn knows what hunts them... Frodo, Sam, Pippin, and Merry continue to go forward even though there is nothing in their experience to tell them how to face the danger that will greet them with the dawn. And the danger never fades... it grows with each step of the journey they take.

368 posted on 2/22/02 10:11 AM Pacific by carton253

He turned to go back, and then stopped, for he heard voices, just round the corner by the end of Bagshot Row. One voice was certainly the ol Gaffer's; the other was strange, and somehow unpleasant..."

And the chase begins.

You hold your breath as they fly from danger to danger just in this chapter.

But thankfully, the encounter with Gildor and the Elves is a welcome respite. And bless Sam, he's just giddy with delight at meeting Elves.

Can you imagine what Frodo must have felt when Gildor greeted him by name?

"Hail, Frodo!" he cried. "You are abroad late. Or are you perhaps lost?"

Lotsa irony there.

369 posted on 2/22/02 10:17 AM Pacific by Carolina

Tolkien has given us only a little foreshadowing when Frodo overhears the conversation with a "strange" sounding person and the Gaffer before they left. Sam has said nothing about that, though he knows of it, it has slipped his mind. (another clue about Sam's understanding of their situation)

And Tolkien leaves us with the same naivety that Frodo has when the first rider appears.

"I can hear a pony or a horse coming along the road behind," said Sam.
They looked back, but the turn of the road prevented them from seeing far. "I wonder if that is Gandalf coming after us," said Frodo; but even as he said it, he had a feeling that it was not so, and a sudden desire to hide from the view of the rider came over him.
It may not matter much," he said apologetically, "but I would rather not be seen on the road - by anyone. I am sick of my doings being noticed and discussed. And if it is Gandalf," he added as an afterthought, "we can bive him a little surprise, to pay him out for being so late. Lets get out of sight!"

Now Frodo passes this off as a simple desire to avoid the gossips, but I think he has just had his first experience with the screaming willies. He understates his fear it to his friends, and maybe to himself, but his instincts have just kicked in.

And the "ring as a character" makes it's first move (or one of the first) here. "curiousity or some other feeling was struggling with his desire to hide"... "A sudden unreasoning fear of discovery laid hold of Frodo, and he thought of his Ring. He hardly dared to breath, and yet the desire to get it out of his pocket became so strong that he began slowly to move his hand. He felt that he had only to slip it on, and he would be safe."

370 posted on 2/22/02 10:32 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog

Tolkien leaves a lot to the imagination doesn't he... the elves, and Gandalf, appear to send and receive "news" in mysterious ways.... Gandalf had heard some "news" before he left, and we certainly do not assume he heard it at the Green Dragon (second gratuitous plug). And the elves, part of their intriguing mystery is revealed... They know Frodo, they have seen him lots of times out walking with Bilbo... and yet... Hobbits have never seen them. They are very much like angels so far.... especially their timing when they arrive in our story.

371 posted on 2/22/02 10:41 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog

They are very much like angels so far.... especially their timing when they arrive in our story.

"The Elves have their own labours and their own sorrows, and they are little concerned with the ways of hobbits, or of any other creatures upon earth. Our paths cross theirs seldom, by chance or purpose. In this meeting there may be more than chance; but the purpose is not clear to me, and I fear to say too much"

Forces for Good are on the move also! With Gildor alerting The Wandering Companies, it's good to know that our hobbit friends are not alone.

You don't think Gandalf got his "news" at the Ivy Bush, do you?

372 posted on 2/22/02 11:02 AM Pacific by Overtaxed

What about the sniffing?... I am sure it is important". Pippin (OK, so it's in the next chapter, but not very far in)

I recall thinking when I read this early on, that we are given clues, but not told outright (yet), that the Ringwraiths cannot see, really. We are shown that they seem to sniff and listen. As evil as they are, they are not particularly great as hunters... as Frodo and company are able to elude them without much skill or experience in this area.

Of course, There were "forces of good" protecting them, not the least of which was Tolkien himself. Tolkien knew he was just beginning what he expected to be a long story, so he had to make them escape! ...but beyond that, the riders are drawn to be blinded phantoms, drawn by an inner force toward the ring, but not designed to confront the real world head on - at least yet. Maybe they are as yet uncertain, but there is a lot left up to us to decide at this point.

379 posted on 2/22/02 12:11 PM Pacific by HairOfTheDog

I advise Hobbits to avoid encounters with Black Riders. A lot of good that does, with neither Hobbits nor black riders much around these parts.

I thought the movie did a good job with the 'sniffing' bits. And those horses - I mean, talk about demonic beasts! You know Jackson did a good job when you're scared of the Nazgul's horses.

I wonder why Elves don't like giving advice, or rather 'say both yes and no'? Because they have so much experience they can sort of see both sides of a thing? Or because they haven't got a clue and are trying to bluff? You'd think they'd be, I don't know, less oracular and more "Those Black Riders are really scary and bad and if they catch you, Middle-Earth is doomed." Then again, I suppose the point was to get Frodo on his way without making him scared to move. I have a feeling that if I saw a Nazgul, I'd run away screaming, or just stand rooted to the spot in terror.

384 posted on 2/22/02 12:48 PM Pacific by JenB

I thought the movie did a good job with the 'sniffing' bits.

I completely missed the sniffing bit in the movie (does that mean I have to go see it again?) In the book it brought that fact to mind when the Rider dismounts and sniffs. (If the horses can see and the Riders are blind, why does the Rider lead the horse?)

I guess Gildor is trying not to scare the bejeepers out of Frodo. But then Frodo doesn't need any Elf to tell him they're bad.

385 posted on 2/22/02 1:24 PM Pacific by Overtaxed

Okay, Jen. How 'bout some Middle Earth Astronomy.

Away high in the East swung Remmirath, the Netted Stars, and slowly above the mists red Borgil rose, glowing like a jewel of fire. Then by some shift of airs all the mist was drawn away like a veil, and there leaned up, as he lcimbed over the rim of the world, the Swordsman of the Sky, Menelvagor with his shining belt. The Elves all burst into song.

Anyone bring food for our stargazing?

392 posted on 2/22/02 2:00 PM Pacific by Carolina

Help me with the Tolkien tradition of giving four names to everything. The black riders, as called by the hobbits, are properly called both Ringwraiths and Nazgul. Are these terms interchangeable? Is Ringwraith simply a translation of Nazgul in the common tougue?

The reason I ask is that the word Nazgul in my memory is not used until quite later in the story... In fact, I correlate Nazgul to the context of the winged creatures they later ride.

396 posted on 2/22/02 2:08 PM Pacific by HairOfTheDog

Menelvagor = Orion, I know that. Also called Menelmacar (menel is a root meaning heavens). This was one of the constellations created by Varda to celebrate the awakening of the Elves. According to Silm., Menelvagor 'forebodes the last battle that shall be at the end of days' and 'when first Menelmacar strode up the sky... in that hour the Children of Earth awoke' (Of the Coming of the Elves).

Incidentally the constellation we know as the Big Dipper or Plough (if you're British) was called Valacirca by the Elves, the Sickle of the Valar and was a challenge to Morgoth.

Borgil I can't find referenced. The word 'gil' means star in Sindarin. 'Bor' I can find no reference to, other than a series of minor chieftains bearing names with 'bor' in them. From context I'd wager that Borgil is the planet Mars.

Remmirath - no clue. Your guess is as good as mine, maybe better as my knowledge of astronomy is very weak.

399 posted on 2/22/02 2:12 PM Pacific by JenB

"perhaps some of them are gluttons, but not many"

To carry the comparison to humans a little furthur, if we really think about it much of our life is spent acquirng, preparing and eating food and it is certainly at the center of our celebrations and most of our wonderful memories, so this is a hobbit quality we can very much relate to and the fact they are so taken with food in a sense accentuates their goodness because we ourselves relate food to good things and their normal eating frequency is virtually double what would be considered normal for a human making it very easy for us to see them as very happy and carefree creatures indeed.

431 posted on 2/22/02 3:17 PM Pacific by sweetliberty

Gandalf had curiousity about this ring and how Bilbo could have found such a thing, maybe, I don't recall anything about it from The Hobbit. But he really did not ever suspect it was the "one ring" until it demonstrated such a profound impact on Bilbo... Bilbo's behavior after the party, combined with his apparent lack of any signs of aging, caused him to wonder.

He began to research it more closely then, like in the movie, when he says there are "questions that need answering". What is easy to miss in the movie, is that it took him 17 years to be sure of the answer, at least sure enough to know the test of fire would answer it for good. He and Aragorn and others tracked Gollum down in that time as well, and tried to dsicover more about how he could have found and kept such a thing. That we do not learn until he gets back...

450 posted on 2/22/02 5:41 PM Pacific by HairOfTheDog

Did anyone who has heard the elves speak in their own language and who has also heard regular mortals speak in tongues (Christian faith) draw any comparisons to the spirit behind what they were hearing in the movie and the Spirit behind speaking in tongues? I am not addressing the fact that elvish is a foreign language, but the effect of hearing the elvish tongue spoken, and the feeling it gave (or may not have given).

I was awestruck by it and so was my movie companion. I felt a tremendous peace every time I heard the elves speak their language. It had a very clean and wonderful sound to me. Anyone else notice anything about this?

453 posted on 2/22/02 9:32 PM Pacific by GretchenEE

nor would I be surprised if they possess some more telepathic ways of communicating

Remember how Galadriel communicated with several members of the Fellowship, without words? I haven't gotten that far in the book yet, but if the book and movie jibe, then the elves do have powers of communicating beyond regular conversation.

455 posted on 2/22/02 9:40 PM Pacific by GretchenEE

I wonder why Elves don't like giving advice, or rather 'say both yes and no'? Because they have so much experience they can sort of see both sides of a thing? Or because they haven't got a clue and are trying to bluff?

At least for FotR, it serves Tolkien's purposes to have them stand in this place of seeming to hold two opinions equally without driving others to believe either, as a vehicle to allow Frodo to make up his own mind to take the ring to its destruction. Frodo's personal commitment to this was essential to his success -- if he were to succeed. The elves knew that if Frodo went because someone told him he had to, he would be far less committed to it, far more likely to back off the mission when the going got tough. Tolkien may have had other reasons also, such as you mention. It seems probable.

456 posted on 2/22/02 9:48 PM Pacific by GretchenEE

The Wizards (or Istari) are Maiar, powerful spirit beings who came to Middle-Earth in the physical form of old men in the Third Age. There were 5, of which only 3 come into play in this story: Saruman, Gandalf, and Radagast. Their job was to assist the free peoples in their struggles against Sauron, who was also a Maia.

467 posted on 2/23/02 9:20 AM Pacific by ecurbh

Maybe this chapter should be called "Of Elves and Wizards." :)

This is the first time in LOTR that we actually get to see and hear Elves. The one thing that struck me is how they can be so serious yet laugh so much. (If you would pardon another comparison to the movie, I missed the Elf laughter in the movie.)

Another thing is that the Elves are not control freaks. You'd think that Gildor would offer to escort Frodo to Rivendell after he found him being chased by Riders with Gandalf missing.

476 posted on 2/24/02 7:34 AM Pacific by Overtaxed

The elves have done quite enough in the First Age and the Second Age and now it's time for men (and Hobbits) to take charge. Even Gandalf doesn't step in and take over - when he could. But they do help in their own way. The "non-interference" way, but still...

483 posted on 2/24/02 1:09 PM Pacific by NewCenturions

The Elves in the third Age were not what they were in the Fist and Second Age. Many of their greatest heroes (Feanor, Gil-galad, etc.) were dead. It was difficult to raise the same great armies as they had used to. The Elves knew their time was going to be over, and looked to Men to save Middle-Earth. The Elves were more in an advisory position by the time of the War of the Ring. In the Second Age an army that was composed of elves and men could lay siege to Barad-Dur for seven years. By the Third Age, the elves were on the defensive, defending their kingdoms in Lorien and Mirkwood.

488 posted on 2/24/02 2:53 PM Pacific by koba

How much do you think the elves put together about the black riders and Gandalf and the ring? I don't have the book in front of me, and now I can't remember, but were they sure the black riders were actually after the hobbits? I remember I was discussing the movie with someone and they mentioned how the nazgûl could sense the presence of the ring, but they didn't necessarily figure out who was actually carrying it. Perhaps the elves just thought the black riders were snooping around the Shire, but not necessarily after the hobbits.

How sure was Frodo and his buddies that the riders were actually looking for them?

I always fall into the trap, in reading the book as well as when watching the movie, of thinking that the Nazgûl are after Frodo. They are, but they don't necessarily know that it's Frodo they're actually after until (Book/movie SPOILER, highlight to read): Frodo pulls the ring out at Weathertop and they "see" it and him. I noticed that in particular in the movie, that the Nazgûl didn't really focus in fully on Frodo until he'd pulled the ring out of his pocket.

515 posted on 2/25/02 7:42 PM Pacific by Penny1

Well, Frodo was able to sense that they are after him:

"I can’t say why, but I felt certain he was looking or smelling for me; and also I felt certain that I did not want him to discover me."

And remember, he was warned by Gandalf in the previous chapter that the enemy learned from Gollum that the ring was taken from him by a hobbit of the Shire, so I think Frodo is beginning to put two and two together. I am not sure what Gildor knows about the ring, but he does know about the Black Riders:

"Is it not enough to know that they are servants of the Enemy?" answered Gildor. "Flee them! Speak no words to them! They are deadly. Ask no more of me! But my heart forbodes that, ere all is ended, you, Frodo son of Drogo, will know more of these fell things than Gildor Inglorion. May Elbereth protect you!"

517 posted on 2/25/02 9:40 PM Pacific by ecurbh

***Tangent/movie spoilers warning***

You know, that line was really interesting. It seems to me movie-Elrond was not seeing the reality that the ring would have corrupted anyone...even an elf. If even Gandalf is unable to bear the ring, then why would Elrond not get the picture that no one was immune to its corrupting power?

I still think the attitude movie-Elrond had has to do with the fact that Isildur and his heirs are in fact his kin. They may have chosen to be men rather than elves, but they are still descendants of his brother....whose name escapes me at the moment. I think PJ may have chosen to incorporate a bit of family issues into the Elrond/men/Aragorn/Isildur dynamic.

The other thing I've been wondering is if Elrond blamed himself for not making Isildur throw the ring into the fire--from the scene they showed, Isildur wasn't even wearing it. If Elrond had recognized the danger of the ring himself, he should have found a way to take the ring from Isildur, no matter the consequences to the guy. I wonder if his vehemence at blaming "men" was at least in part a deflection of his own guilt.

Okay, I'm heading off to Took corner now, lol...is it too early for a pint?

523 posted on 2/26/02 6:54 AM Pacific by Penny1

It’s a dangerous business… going out of your door.
You step into the Road, and if you don’t keep your feet,
there is no knowing where you might be swept off to.

Fellowship of the Ring

CHAPTER III

Three is Company

Hello to everyone who has joined us so far! And thanks to all the historians who provided all the background for Shadow of the Past. I know I certainly know a lot more than I did before!

In this chapter, Frodo knows now that the enemy Sauron has learned the ring was found. Frodo must leave the Shire. Gandalf sets out to seek advice from Saruman, the head of his order, but promises to return in time to accompany him on the road. They decide to head to Rivendell, but from there the road is unclear. Frodo sells Bag End and buys a house at Crickhollow in Buckland, and keeps secret his plans to leave the Shire for good. He does not even tell his close friends Merry and Pippin he has no intention of living at Crickhollow, only Sam. When Gandalf fails to return on schedule, the hobbits set out on their journey alone and guideless. They leave Hobbiton only barely in the nick of time. Mysterious black riders have entered the Shire, asking about a halfling named Baggins.

Excerpts from our chapter to get us going….

”You ought to go quietly, and you ought to go soon,” said Gandalf. Two or three weeks had passed, and still Frodo made no sign of getting ready to go…
…To tell the truth, he was very reluctant to start, now that it had come to the point. Bag End seemed a more desirable residence than it had for years, and he wanted to savour as much as he could of this last summer in the Shire. When autumn came, he knew that part at least of his heart would think more kindly of journeying, as it always did at that season. He had indeed privately made up his mind to leave on his fiftieth birthday… He thought as little as possible about the Ring, and where it might lead him in the end. But he did not tell all this thoughts to Gandalf. What the wizard guessed was always difficult to tell.
He looked at Frodo and smiled. “Very well,” he said. “I think that will do – but it must not be any later. I am getting very anxious. In the mean-while, do take care, and don’t let out any hint of where you are going! And see that Sam Gamgee does not talk. If he does, I really shall turn him into a toad.”
“As for where I am going,” said Frodo, “it would be difficult to give that away, for I have no clear idea myself, yet.”…..

Good Morning! - Movie Pictures – Chapter III

Map of the Shire

362 posted on 2/22/02 8:50 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog

Things I get out of this chapter:

Frodo does not think that he will return from this quest. "Bilbo went to find a treasure, there and back again; but I go to lose one, and not return, as far as I can see." Makes his heroism all the more so, I think. This theme is continued as they go; "I wonder if I shall ever look down into that valley again", Frodo thinks as he takes his last glance down at Hobbiton.

Selling Bag-End to the Sackville-Bagginses! How that must have hurt Frodo. I am glad they drank all the Old Winyards before leaving, though.

The Black Riders are scary. Part of it, I think is the way they're so slowly revealed. Frodo doesn't know what they are, and neither do we - we just know that we don't want Frodo to get caught, and we don't want him to wear the Ring either.

I like the Elf bits. We get some of those glimpses of legends and histories beyond the books - Elbereth, Finrod, the exiles. We also get an Elvish lesson - elen sila lumenn omentielvo - a star shines upon the hour of our meeting. Good to know how to greet an Elf! Of course, Gildor really helps out the hobbits, by sending news of their traveling to Rivendell. Otherwise they might not have had the help along the way.

I think we get some very good insights into the characters of Frodo, Sam, and Pippin. Sam's already devoted to Frodo. Pippin's light-hearted, perhaps too carefree for such a journey. He has some growing up to do! And Frodo loves the Shire very much. He's willing to give up anything to save it.

364 posted on 2/22/02 9:11 AM Pacific by JenB

I think Tolkien has given Frodo very mixed feelings... He doesn't really want to go, (but he wants to see Bilbo). He doesn't really understand the magnitude of the danger, (but he left on schedule anyway, even though Gandalf had not returned) Though he may speak of the danger, Frodo has nothing in his experience to tell him how afraid he should really be. Perhaps until the first rider is seen, and even then, he does not know enough to comprehend. They are having a nice pleasant walk so far, and only Frodo's quiet mumblings about not returning might betray his secret to the others.

And if Frodo does not understand the magnitude, how could Sam? - And Pippin, well, what does Pippin know? (snicker) He is just having a good time.

367 posted on 2/22/02 10:04 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog

Frodo has nothing in his experience to tell him how afraid he should really be.

In one statement, you have summed up the heart of these hobbits. They have never faced danger... They respond with the hearts of lions.

In this day and age of action heros who are never afraid, it is easy to believe that fear=weakness. But these hobbits are the bravest of the brave. Aragorn knows what hunts them... Frodo, Sam, Pippin, and Merry continue to go forward even though there is nothing in their experience to tell them how to face the danger that will greet them with the dawn. And the danger never fades... it grows with each step of the journey they take.

368 posted on 2/22/02 10:11 AM Pacific by carton253

He turned to go back, and then stopped, for he heard voices, just round the corner by the end of Bagshot Row. One voice was certainly the ol Gaffer's; the other was strange, and somehow unpleasant..."

And the chase begins.

You hold your breath as they fly from danger to danger just in this chapter.

But thankfully, the encounter with Gildor and the Elves is a welcome respite. And bless Sam, he's just giddy with delight at meeting Elves.

Can you imagine what Frodo must have felt when Gildor greeted him by name?

"Hail, Frodo!" he cried. "You are abroad late. Or are you perhaps lost?"

Lotsa irony there.

369 posted on 2/22/02 10:17 AM Pacific by Carolina

Tolkien has given us only a little foreshadowing when Frodo overhears the conversation with a "strange" sounding person and the Gaffer before they left. Sam has said nothing about that, though he knows of it, it has slipped his mind. (another clue about Sam's understanding of their situation)

And Tolkien leaves us with the same naivety that Frodo has when the first rider appears.

"I can hear a pony or a horse coming along the road behind," said Sam.
They looked back, but the turn of the road prevented them from seeing far. "I wonder if that is Gandalf coming after us," said Frodo; but even as he said it, he had a feeling that it was not so, and a sudden desire to hide from the view of the rider came over him.
It may not matter much," he said apologetically, "but I would rather not be seen on the road - by anyone. I am sick of my doings being noticed and discussed. And if it is Gandalf," he added as an afterthought, "we can bive him a little surprise, to pay him out for being so late. Lets get out of sight!"

Now Frodo passes this off as a simple desire to avoid the gossips, but I think he has just had his first experience with the screaming willies. He understates his fear it to his friends, and maybe to himself, but his instincts have just kicked in.

And the "ring as a character" makes it's first move (or one of the first) here. "curiousity or some other feeling was struggling with his desire to hide"... "A sudden unreasoning fear of discovery laid hold of Frodo, and he thought of his Ring. He hardly dared to breath, and yet the desire to get it out of his pocket became so strong that he began slowly to move his hand. He felt that he had only to slip it on, and he would be safe."

370 posted on 2/22/02 10:32 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog

Tolkien leaves a lot to the imagination doesn't he... the elves, and Gandalf, appear to send and receive "news" in mysterious ways.... Gandalf had heard some "news" before he left, and we certainly do not assume he heard it at the Green Dragon (second gratuitous plug). And the elves, part of their intriguing mystery is revealed... They know Frodo, they have seen him lots of times out walking with Bilbo... and yet... Hobbits have never seen them. They are very much like angels so far.... especially their timing when they arrive in our story.

371 posted on 2/22/02 10:41 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog

They are very much like angels so far.... especially their timing when they arrive in our story.

"The Elves have their own labours and their own sorrows, and they are little concerned with the ways of hobbits, or of any other creatures upon earth. Our paths cross theirs seldom, by chance or purpose. In this meeting there may be more than chance; but the purpose is not clear to me, and I fear to say too much"

Forces for Good are on the move also! With Gildor alerting The Wandering Companies, it's good to know that our hobbit friends are not alone.

You don't think Gandalf got his "news" at the Ivy Bush, do you?

372 posted on 2/22/02 11:02 AM Pacific by Overtaxed

What about the sniffing?... I am sure it is important". Pippin (OK, so it's in the next chapter, but not very far in)

I recall thinking when I read this early on, that we are given clues, but not told outright (yet), that the Ringwraiths cannot see, really. We are shown that they seem to sniff and listen. As evil as they are, they are not particularly great as hunters... as Frodo and company are able to elude them without much skill or experience in this area.

Of course, There were "forces of good" protecting them, not the least of which was Tolkien himself. Tolkien knew he was just beginning what he expected to be a long story, so he had to make them escape! ...but beyond that, the riders are drawn to be blinded phantoms, drawn by an inner force toward the ring, but not designed to confront the real world head on - at least yet. Maybe they are as yet uncertain, but there is a lot left up to us to decide at this point.

379 posted on 2/22/02 12:11 PM Pacific by HairOfTheDog

I advise Hobbits to avoid encounters with Black Riders. A lot of good that does, with neither Hobbits nor black riders much around these parts.

I thought the movie did a good job with the 'sniffing' bits. And those horses - I mean, talk about demonic beasts! You know Jackson did a good job when you're scared of the Nazgul's horses.

I wonder why Elves don't like giving advice, or rather 'say both yes and no'? Because they have so much experience they can sort of see both sides of a thing? Or because they haven't got a clue and are trying to bluff? You'd think they'd be, I don't know, less oracular and more "Those Black Riders are really scary and bad and if they catch you, Middle-Earth is doomed." Then again, I suppose the point was to get Frodo on his way without making him scared to move. I have a feeling that if I saw a Nazgul, I'd run away screaming, or just stand rooted to the spot in terror.

384 posted on 2/22/02 12:48 PM Pacific by JenB

I thought the movie did a good job with the 'sniffing' bits.

I completely missed the sniffing bit in the movie (does that mean I have to go see it again?) In the book it brought that fact to mind when the Rider dismounts and sniffs. (If the horses can see and the Riders are blind, why does the Rider lead the horse?)

I guess Gildor is trying not to scare the bejeepers out of Frodo. But then Frodo doesn't need any Elf to tell him they're bad.

385 posted on 2/22/02 1:24 PM Pacific by Overtaxed

Okay, Jen. How 'bout some Middle Earth Astronomy.

Away high in the East swung Remmirath, the Netted Stars, and slowly above the mists red Borgil rose, glowing like a jewel of fire. Then by some shift of airs all the mist was drawn away like a veil, and there leaned up, as he lcimbed over the rim of the world, the Swordsman of the Sky, Menelvagor with his shining belt. The Elves all burst into song.

Anyone bring food for our stargazing?

392 posted on 2/22/02 2:00 PM Pacific by Carolina

Help me with the Tolkien tradition of giving four names to everything. The black riders, as called by the hobbits, are properly called both Ringwraiths and Nazgul. Are these terms interchangeable? Is Ringwraith simply a translation of Nazgul in the common tougue?

The reason I ask is that the word Nazgul in my memory is not used until quite later in the story... In fact, I correlate Nazgul to the context of the winged creatures they later ride.

396 posted on 2/22/02 2:08 PM Pacific by HairOfTheDog

Menelvagor = Orion, I know that. Also called Menelmacar (menel is a root meaning heavens). This was one of the constellations created by Varda to celebrate the awakening of the Elves. According to Silm., Menelvagor 'forebodes the last battle that shall be at the end of days' and 'when first Menelmacar strode up the sky... in that hour the Children of Earth awoke' (Of the Coming of the Elves).

Incidentally the constellation we know as the Big Dipper or Plough (if you're British) was called Valacirca by the Elves, the Sickle of the Valar and was a challenge to Morgoth.

Borgil I can't find referenced. The word 'gil' means star in Sindarin. 'Bor' I can find no reference to, other than a series of minor chieftains bearing names with 'bor' in them. From context I'd wager that Borgil is the planet Mars.

Remmirath - no clue. Your guess is as good as mine, maybe better as my knowledge of astronomy is very weak.

399 posted on 2/22/02 2:12 PM Pacific by JenB

"perhaps some of them are gluttons, but not many"

To carry the comparison to humans a little furthur, if we really think about it much of our life is spent acquirng, preparing and eating food and it is certainly at the center of our celebrations and most of our wonderful memories, so this is a hobbit quality we can very much relate to and the fact they are so taken with food in a sense accentuates their goodness because we ourselves relate food to good things and their normal eating frequency is virtually double what would be considered normal for a human making it very easy for us to see them as very happy and carefree creatures indeed.

431 posted on 2/22/02 3:17 PM Pacific by sweetliberty

Gandalf had curiousity about this ring and how Bilbo could have found such a thing, maybe, I don't recall anything about it from The Hobbit. But he really did not ever suspect it was the "one ring" until it demonstrated such a profound impact on Bilbo... Bilbo's behavior after the party, combined with his apparent lack of any signs of aging, caused him to wonder.

He began to research it more closely then, like in the movie, when he says there are "questions that need answering". What is easy to miss in the movie, is that it took him 17 years to be sure of the answer, at least sure enough to know the test of fire would answer it for good. He and Aragorn and others tracked Gollum down in that time as well, and tried to dsicover more about how he could have found and kept such a thing. That we do not learn until he gets back...

450 posted on 2/22/02 5:41 PM Pacific by HairOfTheDog

Did anyone who has heard the elves speak in their own language and who has also heard regular mortals speak in tongues (Christian faith) draw any comparisons to the spirit behind what they were hearing in the movie and the Spirit behind speaking in tongues? I am not addressing the fact that elvish is a foreign language, but the effect of hearing the elvish tongue spoken, and the feeling it gave (or may not have given).

I was awestruck by it and so was my movie companion. I felt a tremendous peace every time I heard the elves speak their language. It had a very clean and wonderful sound to me. Anyone else notice anything about this?

453 posted on 2/22/02 9:32 PM Pacific by GretchenEE

nor would I be surprised if they possess some more telepathic ways of communicating

Remember how Galadriel communicated with several members of the Fellowship, without words? I haven't gotten that far in the book yet, but if the book and movie jibe, then the elves do have powers of communicating beyond regular conversation.

455 posted on 2/22/02 9:40 PM Pacific by GretchenEE

I wonder why Elves don't like giving advice, or rather 'say both yes and no'? Because they have so much experience they can sort of see both sides of a thing? Or because they haven't got a clue and are trying to bluff?

At least for FotR, it serves Tolkien's purposes to have them stand in this place of seeming to hold two opinions equally without driving others to believe either, as a vehicle to allow Frodo to make up his own mind to take the ring to its destruction. Frodo's personal commitment to this was essential to his success -- if he were to succeed. The elves knew that if Frodo went because someone told him he had to, he would be far less committed to it, far more likely to back off the mission when the going got tough. Tolkien may have had other reasons also, such as you mention. It seems probable.

456 posted on 2/22/02 9:48 PM Pacific by GretchenEE

The Wizards (or Istari) are Maiar, powerful spirit beings who came to Middle-Earth in the physical form of old men in the Third Age. There were 5, of which only 3 come into play in this story: Saruman, Gandalf, and Radagast. Their job was to assist the free peoples in their struggles against Sauron, who was also a Maia.

467 posted on 2/23/02 9:20 AM Pacific by ecurbh

Maybe this chapter should be called "Of Elves and Wizards." :)

This is the first time in LOTR that we actually get to see and hear Elves. The one thing that struck me is how they can be so serious yet laugh so much. (If you would pardon another comparison to the movie, I missed the Elf laughter in the movie.)

Another thing is that the Elves are not control freaks. You'd think that Gildor would offer to escort Frodo to Rivendell after he found him being chased by Riders with Gandalf missing.

476 posted on 2/24/02 7:34 AM Pacific by Overtaxed

The elves have done quite enough in the First Age and the Second Age and now it's time for men (and Hobbits) to take charge. Even Gandalf doesn't step in and take over - when he could. But they do help in their own way. The "non-interference" way, but still...

483 posted on 2/24/02 1:09 PM Pacific by NewCenturions

The Elves in the third Age were not what they were in the Fist and Second Age. Many of their greatest heroes (Feanor, Gil-galad, etc.) were dead. It was difficult to raise the same great armies as they had used to. The Elves knew their time was going to be over, and looked to Men to save Middle-Earth. The Elves were more in an advisory position by the time of the War of the Ring. In the Second Age an army that was composed of elves and men could lay siege to Barad-Dur for seven years. By the Third Age, the elves were on the defensive, defending their kingdoms in Lorien and Mirkwood.

488 posted on 2/24/02 2:53 PM Pacific by koba

How much do you think the elves put together about the black riders and Gandalf and the ring? I don't have the book in front of me, and now I can't remember, but were they sure the black riders were actually after the hobbits? I remember I was discussing the movie with someone and they mentioned how the nazgûl could sense the presence of the ring, but they didn't necessarily figure out who was actually carrying it. Perhaps the elves just thought the black riders were snooping around the Shire, but not necessarily after the hobbits.

How sure was Frodo and his buddies that the riders were actually looking for them?

I always fall into the trap, in reading the book as well as when watching the movie, of thinking that the Nazgûl are after Frodo. They are, but they don't necessarily know that it's Frodo they're actually after until (Book/movie SPOILER, highlight to read): Frodo pulls the ring out at Weathertop and they "see" it and him. I noticed that in particular in the movie, that the Nazgûl didn't really focus in fully on Frodo until he'd pulled the ring out of his pocket.

515 posted on 2/25/02 7:42 PM Pacific by Penny1

Well, Frodo was able to sense that they are after him:

"I can’t say why, but I felt certain he was looking or smelling for me; and also I felt certain that I did not want him to discover me."

And remember, he was warned by Gandalf in the previous chapter that the enemy learned from Gollum that the ring was taken from him by a hobbit of the Shire, so I think Frodo is beginning to put two and two together. I am not sure what Gildor knows about the ring, but he does know about the Black Riders:

"Is it not enough to know that they are servants of the Enemy?" answered Gildor. "Flee them! Speak no words to them! They are deadly. Ask no more of me! But my heart forbodes that, ere all is ended, you, Frodo son of Drogo, will know more of these fell things than Gildor Inglorion. May Elbereth protect you!"

517 posted on 2/25/02 9:40 PM Pacific by ecurbh

***Tangent/movie spoilers warning***

You know, that line was really interesting. It seems to me movie-Elrond was not seeing the reality that the ring would have corrupted anyone...even an elf. If even Gandalf is unable to bear the ring, then why would Elrond not get the picture that no one was immune to its corrupting power?

I still think the attitude movie-Elrond had has to do with the fact that Isildur and his heirs are in fact his kin. They may have chosen to be men rather than elves, but they are still descendants of his brother....whose name escapes me at the moment. I think PJ may have chosen to incorporate a bit of family issues into the Elrond/men/Aragorn/Isildur dynamic.

The other thing I've been wondering is if Elrond blamed himself for not making Isildur throw the ring into the fire--from the scene they showed, Isildur wasn't even wearing it. If Elrond had recognized the danger of the ring himself, he should have found a way to take the ring from Isildur, no matter the consequences to the guy. I wonder if his vehemence at blaming "men" was at least in part a deflection of his own guilt.

Okay, I'm heading off to Took corner now, lol...is it too early for a pint?

523 posted on 2/26/02 6:54 AM Pacific by Penny1

Elen sila lumenn’ omentielvo
a star shines on the hour of our meeting

Green Dragon PING

Fellowship of the Ring

CHAPTER IV

A Shortcut to Mushrooms

Hullo all! With it being Friday and all, it is time for our new chapter! I hope you are all caught up on your reading!

In this chapter Frodo, Sam and Pippin wake up to find that the elves have gone. After some breakfast and some thinking, they set out from the woods above Woodhall and decide to take a short cut across country to attempt to elude the black riders.

“…Short cuts make for long delays..” said Pippin. “…I had counted on passing the Golden Perch at Stock before sundown. The best beer in the East farthing, or used to be…”
But Frodo insists “That settles it!… Short cuts make delays, but inns make longer ones. At all costs we must keep you away from Golden Perch. We want to get to Bucklebury before dark.”

Movie Pictures – Chapter 4

And here is ecurbh’s Timeline if you would like to keep track of what day it is as we go!

So off we go! – Here is a Map of the Shire so we don’t get lost….

559 posted on 3/1/02 8:05 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog

Excellent! I like seeing Frodo afraid of Farmer Maggot. Perhaps it's irony, but it's amusing to me because I know what he'll be facing in the months ahead. To be frightened of a friendly Hobbit farmer!

In the movie, is the frightened Hobbit who gives the Riders directions to Hobbiton Farmer Maggot? I think maybe it's supposed to be - with the dog right there, and it fits in.

No brilliant insights about this chapter. We do learn that Hobbits love mushrooms, but that's about it. Oh, and of course there's more of the gradual unveiling of the Black Riders. I would not want to meet one of those guys.

562 posted on 3/1/02 8:16 AM Pacific by JenB

I think it is interesting that the things the hobbits fear most before their quest are big folk, Farmer Maggot, boats, (minor spoiler coming) and the old forest. Interesting that Tolkien foreshadowed a lot of things to be scary, when they turn out not to be (some of our best friends turn out to be big folk). And the big trouble comes from unexpected places sometimes.

The hobbit in the film with the dog could be farmer Maggot... although he is a skinny guy and quite afraid. Farmer Maggot stands up to them pretty well in the story, and that would have been out of place in the film... I think our friend in the film is a generic hobbit...

This is one part that is tough to fit with the film... Even the Quintessential site pics are out of place for this chapter.

I liked how the title of this chapter was given a part in the film... A little chuckle from Mr. Jackson.

564 posted on 3/1/02 8:26 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog

ITA--it's hilarious to think of 50 year old Frodo being afraid of a farmer that punished him as a child.

I do think Farmer Maggot is supposed to be the guy in the movie that the black rider asks about "Baggins."

Some of the things that struck me about this chapter--we get more of an idea of the relationships. We see Frodo wishing he could have Pippin along, but knows he doesn't want to lead him into danger. We have Sam insisting that he go with Frodo--interesting that the elves told Sam not to leave him. Also, I'm always impressed that at this point, Sam sees himself as having an important role to fill as well, even though he has no idea what that might be. It's a big change for him, even Frodo notices that he is different.

The black riders are incredibly creepy, even this early on...they are always lurking, even when they're not seen or heard. Yikes!

I kinda liked the nod to the "shortcut" that they included in the movie. I know they couldn't include all of this journeying with the hobbits, so it was nice to hear about the "shortcut."

566 posted on 3/1/02 8:28 AM Pacific by Penny1

This is the chapter where the character of Pippen becomes a force. He was mentioned in the earlier chapters... but as part of the background. He was linked with Merry.

There is much to learn about Pippen from this chapter. If Frodo is the everyman of Tolkien's story, and Sam the faithful companion... Pippen represents the Hobbits in the joie de vivre.

It is through Pippen that Tolkien's humor first begins to emerge. His humor ran rampant in The Hobbit, but for the most part he has been subdued so far in The Lord of the Rings...

Catch the familiarity between the characters as they set off. You can see it in the way they speak to each other. Pippen asking Frodo if he brought them water. "I can't carry water in my pockets" is Frodo's reply. There is an ease in their relationship.

When Frodo wants to think about what to do, Pippen is very shocked that he wants to do it before breakfast.

Sam's character is not yet defined. He is Frodo's gardner, his servant... though his loyalty is beginning to come through as well as his pure devotion to Frodo. He carried more in his pack than Frodo. He brings things he thinks Frodo will need further down the road, and he isn't afraid to carry more.

Frodo is the leader. The others defer to him. Not because he has the ring, but because Frodo is a natural leader. He is Bilbo's heir and the affection they had for Bilbo remains with Frodo elevating him in stature.

The Black Riders are seen but the meaning of their appearance are not understood to the hobbits. They are afraid of them because they are scarey. When you read The Unfinished Tales... you can see the impact the Black Riders have on Gandalf, Boromir, and Faramir. Their "evil" seeps out.

If you met these three hobbits on the road, I think you would have a tendency to gravitate more toward Pippen. He is as transparent as glass, his mind is on "simple" things... good ale, "the sniffing of the Black Riders", etc.

It is good that Tolkien let us see Pippen in this state. Nothing bad or evil has affected him. He is young, his maturity and his emotional maturity are still young. Nothing has pressed in and shaped him. Nothing has caused him to grow up yet. Life is easy. I believe for Pippin, it has always been easy. He seems to be the favorite cousin... and he responds to Frodo in that manner. That is a pertness and an impertinance about him. It is wonderful to watch him mature.

Of course, after seeing Billy Boyd's portrayal of Pippen, Pippen now comes complete with a Scottish Accent which suits him.

568 posted on 3/1/02 8:33 AM Pacific by carton253

Sam's ... loyalty is beginning to come through as well as his pure devotion to Frodo.

I love this exchange bewteen Frodo and Sam:

"It is going to be very dangerous, Sam. It is already dangerous. Most likely neither of us will come back."
"If you don’t come back, sir, then I shan’t, that’s certain," said Sam. 'Don’t you leave him!' they said to me. Leave him! I said. I never mean to. I am going with him, if he climbs to the Moon, and if any of those Black Rulers try to stop him, they’ll have Sam Gamgee to reckon with, I said.

You can't get much more loyal than that.

569 posted on 3/1/02 8:43 AM Pacific by ecurbh

I thought it was significant in this chapter that Frodo realizes the danger and knows he has to get away from the others. He actually even says to himself while watching Pippin cavorting on the grass:

"No, I could not!" he said to himself. "It is one thing to take my young friends walking over the Shire with me, until we are hungry and weary, and food and bed are sweet. To take them into exile, where hunger and weariness may have no cure, is quite another--even if they are willing to come. The inheritance is mine alone. I don't think I ought to even take Sam." He looked at Sam Gamgee, and discovered that Sam was watching him.
[Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring Book 1 Chap 4]

Sam knows just what Frodo is thinking.

Lord, I love this book.

573 posted on 3/1/02 9:03 AM Pacific by 2Jedismom

The other thing I've been wondering is if Elrond blamed himself for not making Isildur throw the ring into the fire--from the scene they showed, Isildur wasn't even wearing it. If Elrond had recognized the danger of the ring himself, he should have found a way to take the ring from Isildur, no matter the consequences to the guy.

Taking the ring by force in the one thing that opens you up to being controlled by the one ring. Bilbo and Frodo are the only ones who come into possession of the ring by means other than force and they are the only ones who have even a smidgen of resistance to it.

576 posted on 3/1/02 9:15 AM Pacific by Valpal1

I think Frodo's definition of danger is defined by Biblo's adventures. He is probably thinking of orcs, and trolls, and Mirkwood, and Smaug... for adventure and danger has been framed by Bilbo and his book. And so it is true for the rest of them. They have heard Bilbo's stories and read his books. Their is probably a romantic aspect to adventures.

He has no idea what is waiting for him. I don't think Mordor can even be fathomed. The Black Riders are overpowering in their "evil". That evil is so palpable that when they are unrobed and invisible, they are still felt.

I don't have the book in front of me, but doesn't Frodo only expect to be alone up until the Prancing Pony. He expects Gandalf to take over. So, that lessens the evil reference even more.

Sam says "I'll go to the moon with you..." No matter how well intentioned that is, it is still hyperbole. It's only an expression of Sam's loyalty. His words make his loyalty great. But his loyalty is still untried, still untested. He has stout words, but does he have a stout heart? We don't know. They are still in the Shire tramping across lands that have never caused them hurt, never brought them danger, never brought them anything but love and security. They can only imagine what waits for them outside the Shire... they can't know for sure. This chapter shows these three hobbits (and Merry waiting for them at Crickhollow with Fatty Bolger) as untested. They've ducked from the riders, but they haven't been put into mortal danger. So, without that testing, there is nothing to measure what strength is on the inside.

The same is true with who I think these Hobbits represent - the English farmer, schoolboy, factory worker sitting in the trenches of France during WWI. It's easy to talk bravery, loyalty, fierceness, and medals while sailing from England to France. But words mean nothing in the trenches with the bullets flying and your childhood mate blown to pieces next to you. All that changes everything. Then we see the measure of the man.

I see the Hobbits, bravely going forth, but naive about what waits for them. This only strengthens Tokien's story. For the time of testing will come, and then we will see what our hobbits are made of.

577 posted on 3/1/02 9:25 AM Pacific by carton253

Catch the familiarity between the characters as they set off. You can see it in the way they speak to each other. Pippen asking Frodo if he brought them water. "I can't carry water in my pockets" is Frodo's reply. There is an ease in their relationship. When Frodo wants to think about what to do, Pippen is very shocked that he wants to do it before breakfast. Sam's character is not yet defined. He is Frodo's gardner, his servant... though his loyalty is beginning to come through as well as his pure devotion to Frodo. He carried more in his pack than Frodo. He brings things he thinks Frodo will need further down the road, and he isn't afraid to carry more.

Pippin sees himself as Frodo's peer, or he wouldn't have expected him to have brought water back. He's coming along to share in the adventure. Sam, on the other hand, consistently demonstrates humble servanthood. He is assisting his master in a dangerous undertaking. Perhaps, because he was listening under the window to Gandalf and Frodo, he better understands the magnitude of the task (which at this point, they think is getting the ring to Rivendell for safety). None of them really know what they are about to sign up for.

578 posted on 3/1/02 9:30 AM Pacific by Valpal1

I think you are right. Pippen does think Frodo is his peer. They are cousins. Pippen is younger, perhaps slightly spoiled, secure in the love that is demonstrated to him. I see Pippen as immature and sheltered. Not because I know it, but because of his attitude and the things he says. He rebukes Frodo, he isn't afraid of Gandalf, he insists on doing, going, being, etc. Frodo speaks to him as easily as Pippen speaks back. These two are family and friends.

579 posted on 3/1/02 9:38 AM Pacific by carton253

I see the Hobbits, bravely going forth, but naive about what waits for them.

I see the two younger hobbits being naive...sure, just like you said, another adventure much like Bilbos, is what they expect. But I think Frodo has a better idea of what awaits. I get the feeling from previous chapters that Gandalf has pretty well clued him in. The Shadow of the Past chapter does it. Frodo says

"I feel that as long as the Shire lies behind, safe and comfortable, I shall find wandering more bearable: I shall know that somewhere there is firm foothold, even if my feet cannot stand there again.."

Then he goes on to say that he always thought of going away, like Bilbo, but he realizes that this is not the same sort of adventure. Not a "there and back again" deal.

All this just breaks my heart. Such self-sacrifice.

Sam, on the other hand, I think has looked forward to the "adventure" but after seeing the Black Riders and talking with the elves, has begun to see just how bad a situation his master is in. And knowing Frodo the way he does...he knows Frodo won't want to bring anyone else into what he has inherited.

582 posted on 3/1/02 10:01 AM Pacific by 2Jedismom

I guess I don't feel that way because there is no way you can know...

You find that out in life. You think you know what storms you can weather. You think you know how brave or how scared you will be... You think you know, but until you are in the storm, until you are faced with either being brave or scared... you don't know.

He doesn't think he will see home again... that is his sentiment. He can believe it... but until it becomes his reality, it is just an abstract idea.

By saying that I don't take anything away from Frodo. But, he hasn't endured anything. Only in the fire is faith/loyalty/courage tested. Frodo doesn't know the fire. He only thinks he knows what the fire will be like.

584 posted on 3/1/02 10:32 AM Pacific by carton253

I agree with 2Jedismom on this one....I think Frodo is much more aware of what's in store, though he does not know the extent nor the specifics of it. There is a certain pall of doom that hangs over him--I think he senses that his fate is likely to be a tragic one, but of course he doesn't know what that will "feel" like.

The Shadow of the Past probably clued him in on it, at least to an extent.

A couple of things that shed some light on his state of mind--first, that he dragged his feet about leaving, and second, when Gandalf said he wasn't ready yet to take the ring all the way to Mt. Doom--and Frodo whole-heartedly agreed with him. Yet Frodo knows already that that may very well be his fate, because Gandalf said that it might. Frodo is well-versed in lore, moreso than most hobbits, he hangs out with elves and is a friend of Gandalf's. He knows who Sauron is, what Mordor is, and what kind of dangerous journey travelling to Mt. Doom would be.

The one thing that I think he doesn't understand, and in fact I don't think anyone does at this point, even Gandalf, is just how much damage the ring will do to him personally as he carries it with him closer and closer to the source of its evil and its power.

594 posted on 3/1/02 12:17 PM Pacific by Penny1

that he doesn't know what he's getting into when he agrees to come with Frodo

I don't think any of the Hobbits know what they are in for...

In one of the previous posts it has Frodo talking about starving... Frodo's never "starved" a day in his life. He eats six meals a day. His definition of starving is being hungry. But, it's just a matter of getting the food... (waiting for it to cook, or for Rosie to serve it) That's a vast difference than having nothing to eat with no hope of getting any.

In Chapter 4... they can only think in the abstract. Yes, it's dangerous. Yes, it could be fatal. Yes, they will brave those ideas. But, there comes a moment when the rubber meets the road (as we say in these parts) where the mettle is tested and these Hobbits aren't there yet.

So, it isn't just the young Hobbits who are naive, Frodo and Sam are just as naive.

In the movie, Strider tells Frodo "I know what hunts you." Strider's knowing of the Black Riders and what Frodo knows of them are poles apart.

595 posted on 3/1/02 12:19 PM Pacific by carton253

It really strikes me in these early chapters, and in the movie, just how much everyone loves Frodo. They go on together, just because they want to go with him. There is something very sweet and simple in their devotion and loyalty. And it's something that only increases and seems to spread to everyone they meet along the way. Except for the bad guys, of course.

596 posted on 3/1/02 12:21 PM Pacific by Penny1

I still think the main difference in Frodo's understanding of the danger is that he doesn't "get" the spiritual danger he is in. He's frightened of the black riders, and in the movie it's obvious that his level of fear matches the level of threat they pose to him physically. What Strider is speaking of, however, is a spiritual danger--the ultimate danger is that Frodo could become one of them. That's something that Frodo only begins to understand when he "sees" them and when he has to fight that danger within his own soul.

597 posted on 3/1/02 12:25 PM Pacific by Penny1

I wonder, too, if in some way the response of the elves to their story drove home the reality of the danger. After all, the elves could have just said they'd be okay, that they didn't need to get too worried about those pesky black riders. Instead, elves who would ordinarily have barely given them the time of day decided to hide them in their own little spot. That was a comfort, but it also says pretty clearly that the hobbits are in serious danger.

599 posted on 3/1/02 12:30 PM Pacific by Penny1

I guess if you want to spiritualize it...

But I'm talking about the physical danger.

This is only my opinion of course...

For example (and I think this example applies) In the book Gone With the Wind, the county boys (Scarlett's friends) were all upset because they thought the war was going to happen without them. They couldn't wait to go to war and lick the Yankees... Why, this was going to be the best fun... They had no idea what was waiting for them. Ashley said, he didn't understand what he was in for until he saw one of his childhood friends die beside him. Then he understood war. Until then, it was abstract. Yes, you might die. Yes, people shoot at you. Yes, all that. But still, there is a moment when your death is no longer a concept but a reality, and that moment hasn't happened to these hobbits yet.

Now, I realize that Gandalf tells Frodo all about Mordor but being told about it and actually coming in contact with it are as different than night and day. That moment is coming (skipping ahead on Weathertop -- then they'll know)

Like I said, it is only my opinion.

601 posted on 3/1/02 12:41 PM Pacific by carton253

Hmmm. I never thought Gone with the Wind would have any redeeming value, let alone be used to illustrate a Tolkien point! I think you're right if you're talking about Merry, Pippin, or Sam. Frodo, however, has a very good idea of the evil in the world out there. He knows more than the average Hobbit about Elves and Dark Lords. He expected never to return, from the first. Merry maybe had a little idea - he seems older and wiser than Pippin, and more experienced than Sam - but not like Frodo. Frodo went into this whole quest thing with his eyes wide open.

618 posted on 3/1/02 3:48 PM Pacific by JenB

I think right then and there, Sam figures out that Frodo's going to try to get away from them. He knows he better watch him like a hawk.

Samwise certainly acts that way later on. (No spoiler details coming.) I think Tolkien having the elves speak so directly to Sam not to leave Frodo began to put things into crystal clear perspective for Sam on this point, and being elves, they understood enough of Sam's nature to know that a word to the wise (hehe) would be sufficient.

634 posted on 3/1/02 7:12 PM Pacific by GretchenEE

At this time in his life, Pippen is not Thain material.

Put contemporaneously, at this point in his life, Pippen is George Bush in the National Guard, heir to a family fortune and the honors of first-born son, with a lifetime ahead to measure up to the name and family greatness he's been blessed to inherit, or disregard what has been given to him.

Pippen certainly has the manner of the Thain's son, if not the deeds to prove his budding strength and character.

635 posted on 3/1/02 7:19 PM Pacific by GretchenEE

There are many who recognize Sam's devotion and commit Sam to his master in this story... In the film it was Gandalf first. In the book, it is the elves:

When I go reread this chapter, it struck me how Frodo is slow (slower than Gandalf and the Elves at this point) to recognize Sam's devotion.

Frodo looked at Sam rather startled, half expecting to see some outward sign of the odd change that seemed to have come over him. It did not sound like the voice of the old Sam Gamgee that he thought he knew. But it looked like the old Sam Gamgee sitting there, except that his face was unusually thoughtful.

Also, did anyone else think it was funny how Farmer Maggot talked about the Hobbiton folk the same way Hobbiton folk talk about the Bucklanders? Reminds me of growing up in a small town not too far from two other small towns who's town folk talked about each other in much the same way! :)

657 posted on 3/3/02 8:39 AM Pacific by Overtaxed

I remember the first time I read the books and my first encounter with the black riders. It seemed that they set the atmosphere and tone for the entire story. They are SO ominious, just dripping and oozing with evil. That was portrayed so well in the movie. I really had reservations initially about the movie capturing the essence of the books and maintaing the creative integrity of Tolkien's complex story. I was pleasantly surprised, and when the black riders came on the scene it became evident that great effort was made to be true to the original.

660 posted on 3/3/02 8:49 AM Pacific by sweetliberty

Does Frodo underestimate Sam's depth or devotion in the beginning? hmmm... I am thinking so. Or he feels like the is the only one who understands the full impact, and thinks the others are more unaware than they are. He thinks at this point he has been successful in shielding his friends from the truth. He still thinks it is possible to slip away and leave them safely unaware and unaffected by this thing. He still thinks they are naively following along. He doesn't know yet that they DO understand, and are willing to follow anyway. He underestimates all of them.

We are certainly given more clues as to Frodo's depth of understanding because we get more of his unspoken thoughts...

Random thought I had the other day. Sam is the only one of the hobbits who even has a job. The others in the group do not work, presumably because they have inherited the all the comforts of life... More subtle clues that Sam is working class, the others are not.

661 posted on 3/3/02 8:57 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog

I quite agree. I've seen FOTR eleven times, and I remain overall astonished at it. I still get tears running down my cheeks just at how well Jackson brought so many aspects to the screen.

Another example would be Sauron. I've said this elsewhere, but -- when I first heard Sauron would be shown onscreen, I thought, "Big mistake." One of the remarkable aspects of Sauron in the trilogy is that while (A) he is the gigantic, awful, terror-inspiring and looming enemy all through the books, (B) he is never seen! And so I apply Stephen King's Big Bug principle. The monster bug you see is always less scary than the monster bug you don't see -- because your imagination supplies details that make it personally frightening to you, which might be shut out once you actually see something.

And so a Sauron seen would necessarily be less menacing than a Sauron unseen. See? (c8

But at first view, I saw I was dead-wrong, and Jackson had somehow beaten the odds and made a Sauron who somehow was at the same time seen and not-seen. Yes, he is a gigantic, looming figure. But that isn't what you see, when he really strides forth. What you see (and this is brilliant; the Bible does the same thing) is the reaction of others. You see fierce warrior Elrond literally do a slack-jawed double-take, in the middle of a battle-stroke. You see a group of warriors stagger back together before this massive figure. And then the strikes, sending broken bodies flying over the heads of the army....

So it's a Sauron whom you see, yet at the same time you know he's much more than what you see.

Well, don't get me started. I think Jackson is simply a genius. I am in awe of what he's accomplished. I have my quibbles, but compared with Jackson's successes in bringing alive this wonderful story, they're relatively petty.

Dan

667 posted on 3/3/02 12:33 PM Pacific by BibChr

I'm just jumping in new here....and maybe someone else has made mention of this....

...but impressed with your ELEVEN times seeing this movie.....

...one of the scariest scenes I thought was at the beginning when the four hobbits were on the road & Frodo sensed danger.....

..and he alerted them to run into the bushes.....

..and when the evil presence arrived on it's horse, the atmosphere was so charged with the most oppresive, overwhelming horror.....

..and then that spider, then scorpion, then all the ugly worms started crawling out over the boys.

No one in my group interpreted it the way I did.....

...but I saw it as evil personified and so near, that the horrible, ugly creatures that stay hidden were fleeing away from it?

Does that make sense?

Did you know Tolkien & CS Lewis were friends, and taught at the same university?

674 posted on 3/3/02 1:10 PM Pacific by Guenevere

Random thought I had the other day. Sam is the only one of the hobbits who even has a job. The others in the group do not work, presumably because they have inherited the all the comforts of life... More subtle clues that Sam is working class, the others are not.

Entirely correct, although the class divide for the rural hobbits is nowhere near as great as that of Tolkien's England - they have no feudal system and laws are customary, rather than enforced by a lord or a state. In English class terms, Bilbo and Frodo are "lords of the manor"; the hobbits of Bagshot Row are the Baggins' tenants. These hobbits work for a living and pay rent. Bilbo & Frodo are Hamfast & Samwise's employers as well as land lords.

The Bagginses are rich enough to live off of their savings and their rents. The Tooks and Brandybucks are also important families; at the time the story begins, Merry and Pippin are too young to come into any kind of inheritence, but they probably don't have much actual work to do, apart with helping out their families with whatever work is required to manage the family estates. And when they return, they fall right into leadership roles within their family clans and within the regions of the Shire dominated by their families. Sam is unusual in that he moves up, socially, by inheriting Bag End from Frodo.

679 posted on 3/3/02 1:40 PM Pacific by Vast Buffalo Wing Conspiracy

Welcome!

Believe me, if I didn't have SOME LITTLE SHRED of self-restraint, it'd be 12 or 15 or 18 by now!

I've taken in recent viewings to watching the audience during certain parts. I'm sure your scene (which is very creepy) gets them tense. But a little later, at night, in the forest, when the hobbits start moving and the Black Rider bursts out of the trees with a shriek, the whole audience JUMPS! It's a beautiful thing.

Now you raise something I've wanted to ask the group, and I'm glad you did. What about those bugs? When I first saw it, I thought it yucky but gratuitous. I thought the point was, Ooh, this creature's so nasty, it brings its own bugs. It seemed one of the few cliche'd touches in the movie.

But on reflection I started thinking along the lines you suggest. That the point is: this creature is such a monstrosity, even the nasty bugs are terrified and want to get the he@@ away from it. The Dark Rider's so nasty he scares the worms right out of the ground.

Is that how y'all see it?

Dan

684 posted on 3/4/02 6:46 AM Pacific by BibChr

#684....Yes, that's exactly how I see it!---I know there are intense moments throughout the movie, but the presence of so much evil was palpable, and knowing it was hovering where those boys were.............and then all the yukky creepy crawlies we all hate start pouring out......

Another thought from here......Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the 'boys' were told to travel in daylight, and keep low at night,

What struck me as horrifying was the nightmarish black riders were going around in daytime too.......not waiting for night.

They were everywhere....all the time.....day & night!

685 posted on 3/4/02 7:05 AM Pacific by Guenevere

"The evil WE'RE dealing with is so overwhelming ...........

.We find solace in Middle Earth with the young, courageous Frodo .....small in stature but brave of spirit ..... willing.... even determined, in the face of unspeakable evil... to see this to the end and bring about victory!"

I think you make some excellent points. The most successful of stories are rooted in the essence of our being. Those which speak most deeply to our needs and hopes and fears are likely to be those that endure. Many are based in truth, such as the story of the Pied Piper. Most beloved fairy tales have some basis in fact and often deal with issues of death and destruction in the real world and were designed to comfort the children.

An age of evil has dawned upon our once bright nation, and whatever regrets we may have and whatever blame may be placed changes that fact not one bit. But the deepest darkness can be dispelled by the tiniest light and therein lies our hope.

695 posted on 3/4/02 3:02 PM Pacific by sweetliberty

Alas - Tolkien's world never loses its way... It is an untouchable place uncomplicated by all of that. A refuge we can escape to at any time. One reviewer of the film put it really well. It makes you want to be worthy of Middle-Earth.

HOTD said this better than I could. There's something special about Middle-Earth that makes us better citizens of our own world. We're not really trying to escape, we're just taking a vacation so that Monday morning we can face the realities of terrorism and evil here. I think all of us would leap at the chance to go to Middle-Earth, but since we can't, we build our own Hobbit holes and try to learn something from Tolkien.

696 posted on 3/4/02 3:07 PM Pacific by JenB

Wow! No I didn't, but it sure makes sense. Another of my favorites, Chronicles of Narnia, always put me in mind of Lord of the Rings. Lewis and Tolkien always seemed somehow connected. That is interesting to know.

There is another writer that is associated with Tolkien and Lewis (who formed a writer's group themselves called the Inklings) named Dorothy Sayers. She has written some very good stuff, although I have to confess the only thing I have really read of hers is something called 'The Mind of God" which deals with how a writer is an extension of God's creative power. It was very eye opening to me.

699 posted on 3/4/02 3:34 PM Pacific by Alkhin

I love all the comments I have read...especially those of Merry and Pippin. Although, in Pippin's defense, I would like to toss in my thoughts...his is a refreshing personality and is the best example of the nature of hobbit innocense, without any concept of the horrors and outrage that lie beyond the borders of the Shire. I would liken him to my seven year old, who struggles all the time with the event of Sept 11...one she doesn't understand why people keep talking aobut it, and especially doesnt understand why anyone would want to kill people. This is how I see Pippin's view of the world. Were it not for the fact that he is (heretofore unrevealed) part of a conspiracy to watch Frodo, I think his idea of going on a trip with his cousin would be just that (as someone already eloquently explained it!).

And i really like the way someone explained his relationship with Frodo. It is probable that when I first read it, that my impression of their relationship was one of toleration, rather than affection. It always worried me that whoever would play Pippin would turn him into some whining nuisance that people just tolerated. Of course, as an adult and parent now, I can see that this is exactly how kids act ie always hungry, ferociously curious, and contrary (if you tell them not to do it, they do it.) I really appreciate that someone pointed out that Frodo's affection for his cousin was genuine. I hate it when characters like Pippin are patronized. What I like about Tolkien is that he never gets to that point with Pippin.

But I especially like Pippin because 1) he thinks he can do anything...and usually does. 2) he is always ready to go...and I am a lot like that. why sit around TALKING about it...let's roll! 3) I think he is a lot more perceptive than people give him credit for...but THAT comes out more in TTT, and I think that is more of an inward realization for him.

Of course, all of this is just me babbling...

705 posted on 3/4/02 4:13 PM Pacific by Alkhin

Farewell we call to hearth and hall!
Though wind may blow and rain may fall,
We must away ere break of day
Far over wood and mountain tall.

Fellowship of the Ring

CHAPTER V

A Conspiracy Unmasked

Hullo friends! It’s Friday! – Time for our new chapter! I have been waiting for this one!

And thanks to all of you who contributed during the Freepathon this time. A fine thing to see indeed. Free Republic is valuable to all of us.

In this chapter the hobbits arrive at the house at Crickhollow, and Frodo learns that he is not the only one with a secret...

“It’s coming out in a minute,” whispered Pippin to Merry. Merry nodded.
“Well!” said Frodo at last, sitting up and straightening his back, as if he had made a decision. “I can’t keep it dark any longer. I have got something to tell you all. But I don’t know quite how to begin.”
“I think I could help you,” said Merry quietly, “by telling you some of it myself.”
“What do you mean?” said Frodo, looking at him anxiously.
“Just this, my dear old Frodo: you are miserable, because you don’t know how to say good-bye. You meant to leave the Shire, of course. But danger has come on you sooner than you expected, and now you are making up your mind to go at once. And you don’t want to. We are very sorry for you.”
Frodo opened his mouth and shut it again. His look of surprise was so comical that they laughed. “Dear old Frodo!” said Pippin. “Did you really think you had thrown dust in all our eyes? You have not been nearly careful or clever enough for that!…”

And so the conspiracy unfolds….

Movie Pictures-General This chapter happened “off screen” in the movie… so no specific pictures …

And here is ecurbh’s Timeline if you would like to keep track of what day it is as we go!

So off we go! – Here is a Map of the Shire so we don’t get lost….

715 posted on 3/8/02 10:49 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog

Let's start off with a poem: Bilbo's Bath Song, as performed by Master Peregrin Took!

Sing Hey! for the bath at the close of day
that washes the weary mud away
A loon is he who will not sing:
O! Water Hot is a noble thing!

O! Sweet is the sound of falling rain,
and the brook that leaps from hill to plain;
but better than rain or rippling streams
is Water Hot that smokes and steams.

O! Water cold we may pour at need
down a thirsty throat and be glad indeed;
but better is Beer, if drink we lack,
and Water Hot poured down the back.

O! Water is fair that leaps on high
in a fountain white beneath the sky;
but never did fountain sound so sweet
as splashing Hot Water with my feet!

"There was a terrific splash and a shout of Whoa! from Frodo. It appeared that a lot of Pippin's bath had imitated a fountain and leaped on high."

716 posted on 3/8/02 10:50 AM Pacific by JenB

"It’s coming out in a minute,” whispered Pippin to Merry. Merry nodded

One of my favorite statements in the whole story. It shows how much they know about Frodo, and how they've been watching him. Love it!

718 posted on 3/8/02 10:54 AM Pacific by 2Jedismom

Yes, this chapter does develope all four Hobbits quite a bit. We see a side of Sam we haven't before - the conspirator! Merry and Pippin get a chance to show their devotion to Frodo, and incidentally prove that they are capable of at least setting off with him. Keeping this sort of conspiracy a secret is quite a task.

Other than that, we learn more about how much Hobbits love mushrooms, we learn that they like baths, and that Bilbo was quite a composer!

719 posted on 3/8/02 10:57 AM Pacific by JenB

I like this part:

"You do not understand!" said Pippin. "You must go - and therefore we must, too. Merry and I are coming with ou. Sam is an excellent fellow, and would jump down a dragon's throat to save you, if he did not trip over his own feet; but you will need more than one companion in your dangerous adventure."

722 posted on 3/8/02 11:00 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog

Sam looked at him unhappily. 'It all depends on what you want,' put in Merry. 'You can trust us to stick to you through thick and thin - to the bitter end. And you can trust us to keep any secret of yours - closer than you keep it yourself. But you cannot trust us to let you face trouble alone, and go off without a word. We are your friends, Frodo. Anyway: there it is. We know most of what Gandalf has told you. We know a good deal about the Ring. We are horribly afraid - but we are coming with you; or following you like hounds.'

I thought that this exchange showed how deeply committed our young hobbit friends are to Frodo. Reading this again, with an eye to analyzing it, made me appreciate all the more the sacrifices these hobbits would end up making to see their friend successfully complete his (their?) quest.

-ksen

733 posted on 3/8/02 5:38 PM Pacific by ksen

Yes, this chapter does develope all four Hobbits quite a bit.

I agree. After this chapter the hobbits are no longer just cute, little, slightly humurous beings. You come to realize that they know the depth of the trouble that they are stepping into and they go into it with all the seriousness that they can muster. They may not know the particulars, but I believe they know the gravity and are still willing to give their own lives to see Frodo to the end of his mission.

Reading this chapter makes me feel good that the Ring has been entrusted to such a loyal, good-hearted group.

-ksen

734 posted on 3/8/02 5:45 PM Pacific by ksen

" Innocence, ignorance, courage and curiosity; How much of which do you think motivated Frodo at his point?"

Frodo strikes me as being a rather deep thinker for a hobbit and one who lives every minute of his life with his whole being. He was also a reader, which was fairly uncommon in hobbits which indicates that he had an inquisitive mind. Undoubtedly he had grown up at Bilbo's knee hearing many of the old stories over and over and doubtless was swept away in his young mind to other places full of mystery and danger and delight. While his love for the Shire was great and genuine, I expect he had a sense in his own mind at a very young age that he would have his own adventures, although I'm sure he could not have foreseen the enormous peril he would face.

I don't think ignorance played too much of a part and innocence was necessary for from it seemed to flow the purity of soul that made him so peculiarly well-suited for his mission. While I am sure early on in the planning there was an element of curiosity at play, Frodo knew that powerful and sinister forces were at work and must be weighed very seriously. Curiosity tends to denote foolishness and Frodo was NOT foolish. As far as courage, while it was something not called for often in the simple life of the Shire, it was his great love for that very simplicity that gave him the courage to face whatever was necessary, for to do otherwise would have meant certain destruction of his beloved homeland.

740 posted on 3/8/02 6:12 PM Pacific by sweetliberty

Innocence, ignorance, courage and curiosity; How much of which do you think motivated Frodo at his point?

Most excellent question.

Bilbo's tales stirred his curiosity, which he had whetted somewhat by traveling a bit, meeting some Elves and Dwarves, etc. He certainly was innocent regarding the knowledge of evil that he was to face, so his innocence could have led him to think it couldn't be all that difficult to get to Rivendell, his initial objective. Gandalf's words had to bring him up short, so to speak, delivering him from much of his naivety, but not enough of it, as Strider would later remark. He had a curious mind or he wouldn't have been tempted to go.

Then there is another thing that I think Tolkien wanted us to see in Frodo, and that is, obligation to do one's duty. I think this drove Frodo on when almost nothing else could have.

745 posted on 3/8/02 10:09 PM Pacific by GretchenEE

Somebody had mentioned before that they didn't know if Frodo and friends knew the gravity of the situation that they had found themselves in. I think the following quote should put that to rest:

'My dear and most beloved hobbits!' said Frodo deeply moved. 'But I could not allow it. I decided that long ago, too. You speak of danger, but you do not understand. This is no treasure-hunt, no there-and-back journey. I am flying from deadly peril into deady peril.'

I think this shows that Frodo knew that odds were that he would never return from this adventure. But he went anyway. Good young hobbit.

-ksen

748 posted on 3/9/02 6:14 AM Pacific by ksen

Sam looked at him unhappily. 'It all depends on what you want,' put in Merry. 'You can trust us to stick to you through thick and thin - to the bitter end. And you can trust us to keep any secret of yours - closer than you keep it yourself. But you cannot trust us to let you face trouble alone, and go off without a word. We are your friends, Frodo. Anyway: there it is. We know most of what Gandalf has told you. We know a good deal about the Ring. We are horribly afraid - but we are coming with you; or following you like hounds.'

The film developed Sam's devotion to Frodo, much more than Merry and Pippin. Merry and Pippin are a treasure only those who have read the books can appreciate fully, at least so far. Their participation in the film seems a chance accident, a spur of the moment adventure they just fall into!

Frodo, of course, seeks to protect them by sneaking away, because he loves them. The other three know this of course, and 'betray' him by conspiring to make sure he can't succeed in that. They will go with him. It is a test of friendship most of us will never face. In a move of self-sacrifice, Frodo will still offer them the chance to stay, now knowing that no matter what, they intend to go. They are naive, certainly. But many acts of bravery are naive. Most soldiers going to war are doing so for the first time.

750 posted on 3/9/02 8:42 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog

Anyway I've had more time to think about this chapter. I definitely wish that Jackson had included more of Merry and Pippin's scheming and plotting, because as has already been said it seemed a bit hap-hazard how they joined the group. It's clear that they don't really know what they're going to face, in the book, but they do know this is no picnic. You may not be able to chose your relatives, but Frodo sure hit the jackpot with these cousins!

The plot does advance in this chapter, though the journey itself doesn't; Frodo gains companions but they haven't traveled any further. Frodo knows that he has to leave the Shire quickly but prettly clearly he doesn't realize how little time he has to get out. It's simply their good fortune that they didn't decide to wait longer in Buckleberry... but that's next chapter, or more. We get to see more of the Hobbity courage that all us old hands know the little folk possess, but we also see Fatty Bolger, who's hardly fierce. I think Fatty's here to contrast with our adventuresome Hobbitses. Tolkien wants us to realize that our fellows are the exception - but that all Hobbits have a certain kind of courage and plenty of determination. Maybe all Hobbits are fierce as dragons in pinches, but what makes Merry, Pippin, Frodo and Sam special is that they're willing to be put in those pinches, while most Hobbits would try to get out of it. Tookishness? or too much exposure to Bilbo at a young age? Who really knows...

752 posted on 3/9/02 9:23 AM Pacific by JenB

Maybe all Hobbits are fierce as dragons in pinches, but what makes Merry, Pippin, Frodo and Sam special is that they're willing to be put in those pinches, while most Hobbits would try to get out of it.

Clearly we know our hobbits are special. If I have a quarrel with your interpretation, it would be that these hobbits are, rather than extraordinary by nature, are quite ordinary, but for their extraordinary circumstances.

In other words... they are any common man, behaving exactly in the way we hope we all would if faced with a circumstance that threaten us and our loved ones. This situation has hit them where it matters. True, perhaps Fatty is very happy to have a "reason" it is important for someone to stay behind. But for Frodo, it has fallen in his lap. For the others, it has threatened a beloved friend, and that is all they need to know.

Anyhow, that is what I think.

757 posted on 3/9/02 5:32 PM Pacific by HairOfTheDog

Yes, but he very clearly doesn't realize that they are going to show up.

Frodo has a pretty good idea that they'll show up at Crickhollow:

"I fear those Black Riders, and I am sure it is unsafe to stay in one place long, especially in a place to which it is known I was going."
"How soon could the riders get to Bucklebury?"

And Merry confirms:

"But, of course, Buckland cannot resist a determined attack for long. And it is possible that in the morning even a Black Rider that rode up and asked for Mr. Baggins would be let through. It is pretty generally known that you are coming back to live at Crickhollow

762 posted on 3/10/02 6:50 AM Pacific by Overtaxed

Green Dragon PING

Fellowship of the Ring

CHAPTER VI

The Old Forest

Hullo friends! It’s Friday! – Time for our new chapter! And this is our first chapter in the new forum!

In this chapter the hobbits set out from Crickhollow. With black riders sure to be searching for them on the road, they decide to sneak out of the Shire by way of the Old Forest, a mysterious place of legend in the Shire. In our last chapter, Fatty Bolger warned: "But you can't be thinking of doing that. It is quite as dangerous as Black Riders…. You'll get lost. People don't go in there."

… Soon after six o'clock the five hobbits were ready to start. Fatty Bolger was still yawning. They stole quietly out of the house…
In their shed they found the ponies; sturdy little beasts of the kind loved by hobbits, not speedy, but good for a long day's work. They mounted, and soon they were riding off into the mist, which seemed to open reluctantly before them and close forbiddingly behind them. After riding for about an hour, slowly and without talking, they saw the Hedge looming suddenly ahead. It was tall and netted over with silver cobwebs.
…It was dark and damp. At the far end it was closed by a gate, of thick iron bars. Merry got down and unlocked the gate, and when they had all passed through he pushed it shut again. It shut with a clang, and the lock clicked. The sound was ominous.
"There!" said Merry. "You have left the Shire, and are now outside…"

Movie Pictures-General This chapter happened “off screen” in the movie… so no specific pictures …

And here is ecurbh’s Timeline if you would like to keep track of what day it is as we go!

Index to thread… If all went according to plan, (which it didn't but I cant tell what is wrong yet) chapters 1-5 are the first 5 (6?) posts of this thread.

OK! – talk amongst yourselves!….

I see what happened now... Chapter 3 is in there twice... That was no time for a double post! Hullo! Good morning!

A quick bump just to try to get us to 50 because all these reposts are confusing

Checking in. On toward 50!

A quick Index: Chapter One starts Here
Chapter Two starts Here
Chapter Three starts Here and Here (Sorry)
Chapter Four starts Here
Chapter Five starts Here

Chapter Six, our new chapter, starts Here

If I tried, I could have made that more confusing. Hope everyone enjoys our new chapter in our new forum!

Although we don't know what they are yet... I believe there are Ents in The Old Forest...

‘Are the stories about it true?’ asked Pippin.
‘I don’t know what stories you mean,’ Merry answered. ‘If you mean the old bogey-stories Fatty’s nurses used to tell him, about goblins and wolves and things of that sort, I should say no. At any rate I don’t believe them. But the Forest is queer. Everything in it is very much more alive, more aware of what is going on, so to speak, than things are in the Shire. And the trees do not like strangers. They watch you. They are usually content merely to watch you, as long as daylight lasts, and don’t do much. Occasionally the most unfriendly ones may drop a branch, or stick a root out, or grasp at you with a long trailer. But at night things can be most alarming, or so I am told. I have only once or twice been in here after dark, and then only near the hedge. I thought all the trees were whispering to each other, passing news and plots along in an unintelligible language; and the branches swayed and groped without any wind. They do say the trees do actually move, and can surround strangers and hem them in. In fact long ago they attacked the Hedge: they came and planted themselves right by it, and leaned over it. But the hobbits came and cut down hundreds of trees, and made a great bonfire in the Forest, and burned all the ground in a long strip east of the Hedge. After that the trees gave up the attack, but they became very unfriendly. There is still a wide bare space not far inside where the bonfire was made.’...

From later on in our chapter, after meeting Mr. Bombadil:

It became difficult to follow the path, and they were very tired. Their legs seemed leaden. Strange furtive noises ran among the bushes and reeds on either side of them; and if they looked up to the pale sky, they caught sight of queer gnarled and knobbly faces that gloomed dark against the twilight, and leered down at them from the high bank and the edges of the wood.

Hiya, Hair! I'm just wondering if repeated chapters means an oyal-ray edding-way ill-way appen-hay twice. (Notice how cleverly I disguise what I'm saying so no spoiler results, as if anyone reading these posts hasn't read the books yet). If so, this raises the following serious and profound philosophical issue: would that make the participants bigamists? And if one of the late chapters gets repeated, will you really expect us to believe that the climax of the whole trilogy happens twice? Or, as often as it manages to get posted? Wouldn't that be hilarious? How many fingers do you suppose a certain character can spare, anyway? Can you tell there's no WFTD class today? See you!

SPOILER ALERT

Sounds more like the huorins (sp?) thoses ents that are becoming trees or trees becoming ents. Also, they could be some of the black hearted ents/trees that Fangorn talks about

Yes there do seem to be some...odd trees...in the Old Forest. I am trying to be a good hobbit (hehehehe) on the new thread so I will make no further statements concerning tree theories at this time. I'll save Took's Corner until I can safely down a pint. :)

Speaking of pints...does The Green Dragon serve imperial pints or "regular" pints.

Very clever. Yes, I believe that things happen as many times as we talk about them happening. And if my next screw-up skips a chapter, then I would suppose it didn't happen. Thank you for your support!

Then maybe you can do everyone a favour and skip the Tom Bombadil chapter.

Ooops, sorry, too late, darnit. See you later, Hair!

Well Old Man Willow is most definately awake... A Huron perhaps... more of a tree than not. But whether he is a tree becoming entish, or an ent becoming treeish, is difficult to guess.

PING - You hadn't made it on to my ping list yet. We have started Chapter 6.