Lord of the Rings Discussion Group (The Green Dragon Inn) II

[HairOfTheDog]

Repost – Highlights from chapters 1-5 copied from the original forum to the new one. To reference the full version, click here: Original Green Dragon Inn Within the first five chapters... disregard the reply numbers... they wont work.

Thank you ecurbh, for copying and editing our old thread so that the highlights could be moved here! Highlights of the first five chapters from the old thread are pasted into the first 5 replies here. For those of you who are just joining you… as of this post we are beginning Chapter 6.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Welcome to The Green Dragon Inn

Approaching The Green Dragon Inn
Hobbiton, in The Shire

The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
Pursuing it with eager feet,
Until it joins some larger way
Where many paths and errands meet.
And wither then? I cannot say.
- JRR Tolkien

Politics also goes ever on and on.
This is a place for FReeper Tolkien fans to come and take a break from the impure reality of conservative activism and relax a little with a great story. We (the other co-conspirators and I) would like to study together the writings of Tolkien, beginning together, and discussing as we go through The Lord of the Rings together.

This is a chapter discussion, roughly one chapter per week, with the discussion mostly centered on the books, though of course the movie will be contrasted and compared, and perhaps used to illustrate another interpretation of the story.

Every week, someone from the group (maybe me) will ping The Green Dragon List to the new Chapter, but we will continue this one thread until it becomes too cumbersome…. Let me know if you would like to be on - or off - this list. I will for now serve as the Thain of the list.

If you are joining late, jump right in, but please stick to the chapter currently being discussed.

Some have loved this story a long time, and some are newly discovering it. If you fit either category, we invite you to join in, but we would like this thread to stay mostly focused on the chapter at hand and keep moving, but at a pace everyone can keep up with… No jumping ahead, and no lagging behind! If you have other news to report or wish to discuss something Tolkien in more general terms… May we recommend the equally homey Hobbit Hole where my co-conspirators and I frequently have plenty of good talk.

One other request…. This thread will get long. In recognition that images slow down the thread for many, let’s keep the posting of images to a minimum on this thread. If there is a great illustration you wish to share, let’s try to use links instead of images wherever possible.

So lets read, listen and become inspired by the many aspects of The Lord of the Rings that touch us deeply and reconnect us to the values we aspire to. Many great discussions have already been had, and I hope that this thread will produce even more. Many FReepers have wonderful things to say about LoTR, whether the fantasy reconnects them with their faith, with their relationships with friends and family, or simply illustrates the splendor of great acts of heroism and sacrifice in the constant battle of virtue versus corruption.

Though it is a work of fiction, we believe the inspiration to be gained can only help us in our larger political goals: to appreciate and defend our freedom, our culture and our political ideals. May the fellowship and insight gained from this discussion help us to work through the issues that are the basis for our many shared ideals.

Besides, we Tolkien fans* need something to keep us busy during the next two years of waiting for the next two films. If you do not enjoy this story, then please simply leave us be.

*Also known as Geeky Hobbity Weirdos, obsessive fanatics, you name it, we have heard it and we see these names as compliments. In other words: don’t act like a troll, or we will distract you with our endless babble until the morning sun turns you to stone.

[Overtaxed]

I found Jackson's interpretation to be, at times, religious in feeling, particularly with usage of a boys' choir, etc. Frodo's first sight of Arwen, for instance, might have well been a vision of the Virgin Mary.

I'm not particularly religious, though I do find inspiration on the ocean and in the woods. I did, however, enjoy what I considered to be the almost overt religious overtones in the movie (which I had not noticed in the book).

I'm just glad they didn't make it PC! Other than the Arwen thing,what else did you notice that had religious overtones that weren't in the book? I guess I'm not paying attention or I'm just a slowcoach (or maybe I need to see the movie again!) Or is it just the "feel" of the whole movie?

[HairOfTheDog]

I think it is the reverent "feel" that stirs emotions that are spiritual. There are many moments of quiet solemn contemplation that allow us to fill in the meaning from our own hearts, no matter what our beliefs.

The particularly "religious" scene that comes to mind for me is the scene with Aragorn and the sword at Rivendell. The statue which looks very much like an altar, the painting, Aragorn sitting there quietly studying. The reverence that Aragorn shows for the sword and the altar brings to mind a religious feel for me, especially after the callous disregard that Boromir showed in allowing it to clang to the floor. (Boromir is a clod!)

[HairOfTheDog]

This one is also clearly spiritual in the film:

Arwen:
Frodo! No! Frodo, don't give in! Not now! (whispers) What grace is given me, let it pass to him. Let him be spared. Save him.
----------------------
Elrond:
(Standing over Frodo, saying things in elvish)
Lasto beth nin. Tolo dan nan galad.
Translation: (Hear my voice, come back to the light)

[HairOfTheDog]

See last two posts above, I meant to ping you also, and goofed.

[Overtaxed]

Yes those instances do have a religious feel to them. I guess that they're just so part of the story that I take them for granted.

[Overtaxed]

I'm glad they put all that "quasi religious" stuff in there...it must tick off the Hollywood liberal elites no end! (mischevious Tookish laughter)

[SuziQ]

I found Jackson's interpretation to be, at times, religious in feeling, particularly with usage of a boys' choir, etc.

I love the use of choral music in the score; it is so dramatic and evocative of the actions in the movie. I love just listening and remembering the way things happened. The funny thing is that in the score, at the "Journey to the Ford", Howard Shore uses horns very effectively to 'describe' the flood overtaking the Black Riders; when we heard the CD the first time, we could see the white horses in our minds. However, in the movie, that music is not used! When we saw it the second time, we realized that. I guess it was because Arwen uses an Elven 'spell', if you will, and the loud music would have overpowered it. But I thought that was interesting that the music would 'show' something that was in the movie, but the movie did not use that same music.

I thought that the song "In Dreams" should have been the one put up for the Oscar; to me it evokes more of the sense of hte movie than "May It Be". I do like the Enya song, but I like the boy choir sound much better.

[Sam Cree]

"is it just the "feel" of the whole movie?"

"I think it is the reverent "feel" that stirs emotions that are spiritual."

I agree that it's mostly just the feel of the whole movie. The characters are involved with utter devotion in a deadly and heroic quest against an implacable evil.

But I did think that the image (of Frodo's first sight) of Arwen (ethereal and bathed in extreme light) as his wound from the Morgul blade (or whatever) deepened, was a very saint like and miraculous appearing image. Also, as he recovered conciousness in Rivendell, they showed some sort of gazebo, it looked ethereal and church-like combined with the singing and lighting. Also the vaulted ceilings and columns in Moria seem to be taken from the gothic archtecture used in the great cathedrals of the Middle Ages.

"There are many moments of quiet solemn contemplation that allow us to fill in the meaning from our own hearts, no matter what our beliefs."

I like the way you put it.

"I'm glad they put all that "quasi religious" stuff in there...it must tick off the Hollywood liberal elites no end! (mischevious Tookish laughter)"

I hope it does.

"I love the use of choral music in the score"

I really love this score, I'm having to force myself not listen to it too much for fear of getting burned out.

My sister in law, a devout Catholic and also a Tolkien fan was strongly affected by all this, she came out of the theatre saying all that talk about it not being allegorical is "bull." I'm inclined to believe Tolkien on that one though, especially as he qualified his remarks on that subject, I think he said it was unavoidable that parts of the story would be relevant to the real world.

[Sam Cree]

'Maybe. To sheep other sheep no doubt appear different' laughed Lindir.

Does this remark by a Rivendell elf (on telling the difference between "mortals," Aragorn and Bilbo specifically) qualify as snooty?

[Sam Cree]

"But we must have power, power to order all things as we will, for that good which only the Wise can see."

Gandalf quoting Saruman at the council. Sounds like the socialist mantra about the common good and central planning, doesn't it. Sounds like something a democrat would think or say.

[HairOfTheDog]

Or- the other liberal subtitle: we are the only ones wise enough to know what is right. They are ignorant and don't know any better.

[Penny1]

I think context is always important in understanding what Tolkien meant when he said it was not allegorical in any way. I have not read the letters, because I don't have them...yet....but the one time when I read the quote about allegory when context was provided it was in the context of either WWI or WWII.

Maybe someone can provide more info on that, but it seems to me that in terms of Tolkien's religious background, the symbolism is there, since he specifically mentions symbolism in the quote from OT above, it's just a question of how explicit and exact it is.

All that to say, I think your sister and I would tend to see eye-to-eye on this one. ;)

[Overtaxed]

'Maybe. To sheep other sheep no doubt appear different' laughed Lindir.

Does this remark by a Rivendell elf (on telling the difference between "mortals," Aragorn and Bilbo specifically) qualify as snooty?

Yes it does sound snooty! At least Lindir softens it by "trying" to make a joke out of it.

[Overtaxed]

...readng more of The Letters today....

[Overtaxed]

Good Morning All!

I think context is always important in understanding what Tolkien meant when he said it was not allegorical in any way. I have not read the letters, because I don't have them...yet....but the one time when I read the quote about allegory when context was provided it was in the context of either WWI or WWII.

Perhaps it's because I haven't had my coffee fix yet, but I'm starting to get confused about this allegory business. Is everyone talking about "allegory" allegory or is the discussion really about symbolism? The definition of "allegory " is:

The representation of abstract ideas or principles by characters, figures, or events in narrative, dramatic, or pictorial form.

A story, picture, or play employing such representation. John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress and Herman Melville's Moby Dick are allegories

. A symbolic representation: The blindfolded figure with scales is an allegory

I've started reading references to allegories (or rather..."not an allegory") in The Letters. When he first starts LOTR he states in Letter #34 dated 13 October, 1938 :

When I spoke, in an earlier letter to Mr Furth, of this sequel getting 'out of hand', I did not mean it to be complimentary to the process. I really meant it was running its course, and forgetting 'children', and was becoming more terrifying than the Hobbit. It may prove quite unsuitable. It is more 'adult' - but my own children who criticize it as it appears are now older. However, you will be the judge of that, I hope, some day! The darkness of the present days has had some effect on it. Though it is not an 'allegory'. (I have already had one letter from America asking for an authoritative exposition of the allegory of The Hobbit).

Still reading......

[Overtaxed]

Tolkien on Allegory (in general), The Letters #109:

Of course, Allegory and Story converge, meeting somewhere in Truth. So that the only perfectly consistent allegory is a real life; and the only fully intelligible story is an allegory. And one finds, even in imperfect human 'literature', that the better and more consistent an allegory is the more easily can it be read 'just as a story'; and the better and more closely woven a story is the more easily can those so minded find allegory in it. But the two start out from opposite ends. You can make the Ring into an allegory of our own time, if you like: an allegory of the inevitable fate that waits for all attempts to defeat evil power by power. But that is only because all power magical or mechanical does always so work. You cannot write a story about an apparently simple magic ring without that bursting in, if you really take the ring seriously, and make things happen that would happen, if such a thing existed.

[Overtaxed]

.....and finally on allegory, Letter #202:

There is no 'symbolism' or conscious allegory in my story. Allegory of the sort 'five wizards=five senses' is wholly foreign to my way of thinking. There were five wizards and that is just a unique part of history. To ask if the Orcs 'are' Communists is to me as sensible as asking if Communists are Orcs.

That there is no allegory does not, of course, say there is no applicability. There always is. And since I have not made the struggle wholly unequivocal: sloth and stupidity among hobbits, pride and [illegible] among Elves, grudge and greed in Dwarf-hearts, and folly and wickedness among the 'Kings of Men', and treachery and power-lust even among the 'Wizards', there is I suppose applicability in my story to present times. But I should say, if asked, the tale is not really about Power and Dominion: that only sets the wheels going; it is about Death and the desire for deathlessness. Which is hardly more than to say it is a tale written by a Man!

[Penny1]

Wow, OT, those letters sound like they are chock full of good stuff about LOTR....thanks for sharing these snippets!

It sounds to me like people were trying to draw parallels between what he wrote and what was going on in the world politically.

[Overtaxed]

I'm just starting on the Catholicism and Christianity references. I didn't find anything on "Catholic allegory" (or "Christian allegory") in the index. What I've found are Catholic and Christian views in general...not necessarily as it relates to ME or LOTR.

I have just found a long spiel about the immortality of Elves and mortality of Men and the will of Illuvatar and the "Christian mythology" as he calls it and the Fall of Man. It's Letter #212...a draft that was never sent. It's kind of long and deep (and right now I'm watching the race that was postponed from last night). I'd like to wait until I'm a little less distracted to digest it all!

[Overtaxed]

I got the Precious!