Posted on 03/14/2002 5:07:26 AM PST by HairOfTheDog
This is a continuation of the infamous thread New Zealander Builds Hobbit Hole originally posted on January 26, 2001 by John Farson, who at the time undoubtedly thought he had found a rather obscure article that would elicit a few replies and die out. Without knowing it, he became the founder of the Hobbit Hole. For reasons incomprehensible to some, the thread grew to over 4100 replies. It became the place for hobbits and friends of hobbits to chit chat and share LoTR news and views, hang out, and talk amongst ourselves in the comfort of familiar surroundings.
In keeping with the new posting guidelines, the thread idea is continuing here, as will the Green Dragon Inn, our more structured spin-off thread, as soon as we figure out how to move all the good discussion that has been had there. As for the Hobbit Hole, we will just start fresh, bringing only a few mathoms such as the picture above with us to make it feel like home, and perhaps a walk down memory lane:
Our discussion has been light:
It very well may be that a thread named "New Zealander builds Hobbit hole" will end up being the longest Tolkien thread of them all, with some of the best heartfelt content... Sorry John, but I would have rather it had been one with a more distinguished title!… post 252 - HairOfTheDog
However, I can still celebrate, with quiet dignity, the fact that what started as a laugh about some wacko in New Zealand has mutated and grown into a multifaceted discussion of the art, literature, and philosophy that is Tolkien. And now that I've managed to write the most pompous sentence of my entire life, I agree, Rosie… post 506 - JenB
Hah! I was number 1000!! (Elvish victory dance... wait, no; that would be too flitty) … post 1001 - BibChr
Real men don't have to be afraid of being flitty! Go for it. – post 1011 – HairOfTheDog
Seventeen years to research one mystical object seems a bit excessive… post 1007 - JenB
Okay...who's the wise guy who didn't renew Gandalf's research grant?… post 1024 – Overtaxed
To the very philosophical:
…Judas Iscariot obviously was a good man, or he wouldn't have been chosen to be one of the Apostles. He loved Jesus, like all of the Apostles, but he betrayed him. Yet without his betrayal, the Passion and Crucifixion would never have occurred, and mankind would not have been redeemed. So without his self-destruction infinite good would not have been accomplished. I certainly do not mean this to be irreverant but it seems to me that this describes the character of Gollum, in the scenes so movingly portrayed above… Lucius Cornelius Sulla
To fun but heartfelt debates about the integrity and worth of some of the characters…
…Anyone else notice how Boromir treats the hobbits? He's very fond of them but he seems to think of them as children - ruffling Frodo's hair, calls them all 'little ones'. He likes them, but I don't think he really respects them… post 1536 - JenB
Yes... Tolkien told us not to trust Boromir right off the bat when he began to laugh at Bilbo, until he realized that the Council obviously held this hobbit in high esteem. What a pompous dolt… post 1538 - HairOfTheDog
…I think almost every fault of his can be traced directly back to his blindness to anything spiritual or unseen. He considers the halflings as children, because that is what they look like. He considers the only hope of the ring to be in taking it and using it for a victory in the physical realm. He cannot see what the hobbits are truly made of, he cannot see the unseen hope of what the destruction of the ring might mean--the destruction of Sauron himself, and he cannot see the unseen danger that lies in the use of the ring itself… I just feel sorry for Boromir--he is like a blind but honorable man, trying to take the right path on the road but missing the right path entirely because he simply cannot see it… post 1548 - Penny1
Boromir isn't a jerk, he's a jock… post 2401 – Overtaxed
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Oh, I think by the time Frodo reaches the Cracks, he's not even himself anymore! I think he's not only on the brink of a dangerous place physically, he's on the brink of losing himself completely during the exchange with Gollum. But for some reason, the take-over isn't complete till he actually has to throw the Ring in. The person speaking to Gollum is not Frodo, but the "Wheel of Fire" that Sam sees. After the Ring is destroyed, Frodo not only comes back to himself, but comes back with the unbearable (to him) knowledge of what it's like to be completely without compassion. I think that's why it's so important to him to be compassionate in the Shire… post 2506 - 2Jedismom
…Regarding Frodo's compassion... it's a little too much at the end. Even Merry tells him that he's going to have to quit being so darn nice. But you're right. He's learned a lesson about evil that very few ever learn since it wasn't an external lesson but an internal one. (Those kinds of lessons have the greatest impact) Not only did he totally succumb to it, but he was rather ruthless to my little Smeagol… post 2516 - carton253
Well that Frodo was a big mean bully! (to Smeagol)… post 2519 – Overtaxed
So as you can see, everything JRR Tolkien (and Peter Jackson) is welcome here in our New Row, our soon-to-be familiar New Hobbit Hole…; philosophy, opinion, good talk and frequent silliness.
I've often wondered why this enthralling scene was only told by the junior Hobbits. Was it to strengthen their characters, or was it a throwback to the old way of storytelling, in which everything was told in the third person?
Any thoughts on my analysis of Denethor?
I think it was told by the junior hobbits because they had the direct connections to Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas.
It is very funny and rather dramatic not to know what happens... and then have Merry and Pippen at the door (smoking and sleeping)... It strengthens the love between the character and elevates the characters above the action.
Maybe Tolkien wasn't satisfied with his writing of the "action"... couldn't do it justice, etc., so reverted to narration. (That's what I'd do, but I'm no genius and he writes everything so well).
Faramir says something interesting about Gondor to Frodo... We are in a springless autumn.
By time we meet Denethor in the book, there is nothing left to him but a springless autumn. He is harsh, severe, and downright cruel. Boromir is dead... and with Boromir's death went the light of his life.
Tolkien leaves Denethor like that. Never tries to redeem him... or give us some reason to like him. (Whereas, Smeagol is the villian, at least Smeagol is funny and entertaining... and teeters for a moment on the edge of redemption)
It's funny... Tolkien writes Boromir with huge strengths and weaknesses. Faramir is for the most part seen only with strength. Denethor is seen failing, falling, and Tolkien does nothing to catch him.
PS - Can you tell me about your freep name...
I think that this might be it. As I remember, one of the ways they increased suspense in novels written as an exchange of letters, as Pride and Prejudice was in part, was to have characters anxiously awaiting news, then have a character or letter arrive, telling the story.
What we are waiting for is not what happens to Merry and Pippen for we know what happens. But it is fun to see how Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli will react when they finally see their friends again. (And Aragorn loved those hobbits)
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As for Denethor, I think it may be that Tolkien sometimes left characters for us to puzzle out without much help from him, sort of like the teacher saying 'I'll leave that for you as an assignment'. Or perhaps Tolkien disliked Denethor too much to explain him, but there were plenty of nastier characters who were given more depth (not Wormtongue, of course, so maybe it is the same thing with Denethor).
I like the fact that we meet Denethor in his descent into madness...
That's because he uses Theoden as contrast. Both men are leaders and warriros, past their prime, decieved into thinking they face a hopeless battle. Both have lost a son and the 'replacement' seems unsuitable. Neither likes Gandalf or the words he brings, and neither wishes to face the enemy that is coming.
The difference is, Theoden responds to Gandalf and is healed; he dies, but victoriously in battle, completely redeemed. Denethor will not listen and commits suicide. There are other parallels between the two but I'm sure you see my point! It's also hardly a coincidence, in my mind, that Eowyn marries Faramir.
Can't agree with this, Faramir was the heir to the Stewardship, and he would have made a better Steward than Denethor. I had hoped that Aragorn would keep him as Steward, since the title came into existence when the old kings ruled, after all, rather like the major domo (Mayor of the Palace) of the Frankish Merovingian Kings.
Perhaps it was felt that since they had virtually ruled Gondor, it would be uncomfortable to keep them in the capital. Of course this is all much more political than Tolkien ever was (just let us FR types arrange things in Aragorn's kingdom politically, right!)
That is why I like these discussions. I learn so much.
Doesn't Aragorn make Faramir Lord of Ithilien. (pardon my spelling)
Denethor seems to have been thoroughly discussed while I was still in bed! LOL
RE: Denethor... We have both missed that. I have been away too.
For what it is worth... I think Tolkien had Denethor self-destruct so that the reader would be able to celebrate Aragorn's return without grieving for a righteous, unfairly unseated Steward... Faramir would have made a good Steward, but he became an ally of Aragorn's.
You are right, as I remember that made two princes in the Kingdom, Faramir, Prince of Ithilien, along with Prince Imrahir (He was a minor character I rather regretted them leaving out of the cast, but if others can take Bombadil getting the boot, I can't protest losing Imrahir too much. Drat, drat drat!)
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