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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla
Liked it... Since I consider that most people are complex and conflicted than they are simplistic, you have given Denethor more aspects than Tolkien. Sometimes you never know why a person is what they are (Sydney Carton from A Tale of Two Cities is one... why is he like that?)

Faramir says something interesting about Gondor to Frodo... We are in a springless autumn.

By time we meet Denethor in the book, there is nothing left to him but a springless autumn. He is harsh, severe, and downright cruel. Boromir is dead... and with Boromir's death went the light of his life.

Tolkien leaves Denethor like that. Never tries to redeem him... or give us some reason to like him. (Whereas, Smeagol is the villian, at least Smeagol is funny and entertaining... and teeters for a moment on the edge of redemption)

It's funny... Tolkien writes Boromir with huge strengths and weaknesses. Faramir is for the most part seen only with strength. Denethor is seen failing, falling, and Tolkien does nothing to catch him.

PS - Can you tell me about your freep name...

645 posted on 03/21/2002 4:45:53 AM PST by carton253
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To: carton253
PS - Can you tell me about your freep name..

See my homepage.

As for Denethor, I think it may be that Tolkien sometimes left characters for us to puzzle out without much help from him, sort of like the teacher saying 'I'll leave that for you as an assignment'. Or perhaps Tolkien disliked Denethor too much to explain him, but there were plenty of nastier characters who were given more depth (not Wormtongue, of course, so maybe it is the same thing with Denethor).

648 posted on 03/21/2002 4:51:27 AM PST by Lucius Cornelius Sulla
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To: carton253
Tolkien leaves Denethor like that. Never tries to redeem him... or give us some reason to like him.

That's because he uses Theoden as contrast. Both men are leaders and warriros, past their prime, decieved into thinking they face a hopeless battle. Both have lost a son and the 'replacement' seems unsuitable. Neither likes Gandalf or the words he brings, and neither wishes to face the enemy that is coming.

The difference is, Theoden responds to Gandalf and is healed; he dies, but victoriously in battle, completely redeemed. Denethor will not listen and commits suicide. There are other parallels between the two but I'm sure you see my point! It's also hardly a coincidence, in my mind, that Eowyn marries Faramir.

650 posted on 03/21/2002 5:02:04 AM PST by JenB
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