Posted on 03/14/2002 5:07:26 AM PST by HairOfTheDog
This is a continuation of the infamous thread New Zealander Builds Hobbit Hole originally posted on January 26, 2001 by John Farson, who at the time undoubtedly thought he had found a rather obscure article that would elicit a few replies and die out. Without knowing it, he became the founder of the Hobbit Hole. For reasons incomprehensible to some, the thread grew to over 4100 replies. It became the place for hobbits and friends of hobbits to chit chat and share LoTR news and views, hang out, and talk amongst ourselves in the comfort of familiar surroundings.
In keeping with the new posting guidelines, the thread idea is continuing here, as will the Green Dragon Inn, our more structured spin-off thread, as soon as we figure out how to move all the good discussion that has been had there. As for the Hobbit Hole, we will just start fresh, bringing only a few mathoms such as the picture above with us to make it feel like home, and perhaps a walk down memory lane:
Our discussion has been light:
It very well may be that a thread named "New Zealander builds Hobbit hole" will end up being the longest Tolkien thread of them all, with some of the best heartfelt content... Sorry John, but I would have rather it had been one with a more distinguished title!… post 252 - HairOfTheDog
However, I can still celebrate, with quiet dignity, the fact that what started as a laugh about some wacko in New Zealand has mutated and grown into a multifaceted discussion of the art, literature, and philosophy that is Tolkien. And now that I've managed to write the most pompous sentence of my entire life, I agree, Rosie… post 506 - JenB
Hah! I was number 1000!! (Elvish victory dance... wait, no; that would be too flitty) … post 1001 - BibChr
Real men don't have to be afraid of being flitty! Go for it. – post 1011 – HairOfTheDog
Seventeen years to research one mystical object seems a bit excessive… post 1007 - JenB
Okay...who's the wise guy who didn't renew Gandalf's research grant?… post 1024 – Overtaxed
To the very philosophical:
…Judas Iscariot obviously was a good man, or he wouldn't have been chosen to be one of the Apostles. He loved Jesus, like all of the Apostles, but he betrayed him. Yet without his betrayal, the Passion and Crucifixion would never have occurred, and mankind would not have been redeemed. So without his self-destruction infinite good would not have been accomplished. I certainly do not mean this to be irreverant but it seems to me that this describes the character of Gollum, in the scenes so movingly portrayed above… Lucius Cornelius Sulla
To fun but heartfelt debates about the integrity and worth of some of the characters…
…Anyone else notice how Boromir treats the hobbits? He's very fond of them but he seems to think of them as children - ruffling Frodo's hair, calls them all 'little ones'. He likes them, but I don't think he really respects them… post 1536 - JenB
Yes... Tolkien told us not to trust Boromir right off the bat when he began to laugh at Bilbo, until he realized that the Council obviously held this hobbit in high esteem. What a pompous dolt… post 1538 - HairOfTheDog
…I think almost every fault of his can be traced directly back to his blindness to anything spiritual or unseen. He considers the halflings as children, because that is what they look like. He considers the only hope of the ring to be in taking it and using it for a victory in the physical realm. He cannot see what the hobbits are truly made of, he cannot see the unseen hope of what the destruction of the ring might mean--the destruction of Sauron himself, and he cannot see the unseen danger that lies in the use of the ring itself… I just feel sorry for Boromir--he is like a blind but honorable man, trying to take the right path on the road but missing the right path entirely because he simply cannot see it… post 1548 - Penny1
Boromir isn't a jerk, he's a jock… post 2401 – Overtaxed
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Oh, I think by the time Frodo reaches the Cracks, he's not even himself anymore! I think he's not only on the brink of a dangerous place physically, he's on the brink of losing himself completely during the exchange with Gollum. But for some reason, the take-over isn't complete till he actually has to throw the Ring in. The person speaking to Gollum is not Frodo, but the "Wheel of Fire" that Sam sees. After the Ring is destroyed, Frodo not only comes back to himself, but comes back with the unbearable (to him) knowledge of what it's like to be completely without compassion. I think that's why it's so important to him to be compassionate in the Shire… post 2506 - 2Jedismom
…Regarding Frodo's compassion... it's a little too much at the end. Even Merry tells him that he's going to have to quit being so darn nice. But you're right. He's learned a lesson about evil that very few ever learn since it wasn't an external lesson but an internal one. (Those kinds of lessons have the greatest impact) Not only did he totally succumb to it, but he was rather ruthless to my little Smeagol… post 2516 - carton253
Well that Frodo was a big mean bully! (to Smeagol)… post 2519 – Overtaxed
So as you can see, everything JRR Tolkien (and Peter Jackson) is welcome here in our New Row, our soon-to-be familiar New Hobbit Hole…; philosophy, opinion, good talk and frequent silliness.
Fellowship of the Ring page 414...
"I shall go to Minas Tirith, alone if need be, for it is my duty," said Boromir; and after than he was silent for a while, sitting with his eyes fixed on Frodo, as if was trying to read the Halfling's thoughts. At length, he spoke again, softly, as if he was debating with himself. "If you wish only to destroy the Ring," he said, "then there is little use in war and weapons; and the Men of Minas Tirith cannot help. But if you wish to destroy the armed might of the Dark Lord, then it is folly to go without force in his domain, and folly to throw away." He paused suddenly, as if he had become aware that he was speaking his thoughts aloud. "It would be folly to throw lives away, I mean," he eneded. "It is a choice between defending a strong place and walking openly into the arms of death. At least, that is how I see it."
Frodo caught something new and strange in Boromir's glance, and he looked hard at him. Plainly Boromir's thought was different than his final words. It would be folly to throw away: what? The Ring of Power? He has said something like this at the Council, but then accepted the correction of Elrond.
Let's go to the Council of Elrond and see what Frodo is referring to. Page 300.
Boromir stirred, and Frodo looked at him. He was fingering his great horn and frowning. At length he spoke.
"I do not understand all this," he said. "Saruman is a traitor, but did he not have a glimpse of wisdom? Why do you speak ever of hiding and destroying? Why should we not think that the Great Ring has come into our hands to serve us in the very hour of need? Wielding it, the Free Lords of the Free may surely defeat the Enemy. That is what he fears most, I deem.
The Men of Gondor are valiant, and they will never submit but they may be beaten down. Valour needs first strength, and then a weapon. Let the Ring be your weapon, if it has such power as you say. Take it and go forth to victory."
Elrond then has a big long speech and ends with I will not take the Ring to wield it.
"Nor I," said Gandalf.
Boromir looked at them doubtfully, but he bowed his head. "So be it..."
Now, I don't think for a minute he gave up his purpose just because Elrond and Gandalf said the ring can't be wielded. What if Boromir held Elves and Wizards in the same esteem his father did? He gave in it seems, but on page 414, he still has the same strategy.
I do believe that Boromir was influenced by the Ring, but I do not believe that he was suddenly overcome. I believe, he came to Rivendell on a desperate mission: to find out what Isildur's bane was. He did not know it was the Ring of Power. Faramir said that Boromir thought it was a great weapon. His mission was to bring that weapon to Gondor to aid in the defense of Gondor and bring glory to himself.
So, when faced with returning home without it... he tried to take it from Frodo.
What say you...
What say you..."
Boromir is man overcome by sin. But he is not wholly Caine. There is something of Peter in him as well, in that he is used for good following his evil act. And there is a bit of the thief on the Cross as well--the death-bed understanding of how he has erred.
You guys are so much more advanced with this stuff. But I'm learning, I'm learning!
Mozie (who still wishes she could escape to the Shire for about a month.............)
I seriously doubt there will ever be a time when I can stop actively learning more about Tolkien. It's kinda like being a grad student, but without the long hours or the weird professors.
Denethor II was a proud man, tall, valiant, and more kingly than any man that had appeared in Gondor for many lives of men; and he was wise also, and farsighted, and learned in lore. Indeed he was as like to Thorongil as to one of nearest kin, and yet was ever placed second to the stranger in the hearts of men and the esteem of his father.It must have really stuck in his craw to find out that Thorongil was the rightful king!
Not really, if you count every picture that has ever been presented to him or his employees as involving him, that would leave nothing but the Christian 'rapture' movies not involved with him. As for his behavior in the Oscar campaigns, he probably learned it from Carville!
I disagree with some of the analysis of Denethor, and agree with a lot of it. Denethor as you quoted was the greatest man in his line for generations, and had the Numenorian vice of excessive pride in himself and his wonderful city. Like many fathers he put his hopes on his firstborn son, but the name he gave Faramir shows both his obsession with Boromir and his inadequate qualities as a father (something not uncommon with rulers, if you remember The Lion In Winter). It would really have grated on him that his father gave preference for an apparent commoner from the northern wilderness.
Then in his pride, he thought he could beat Sauron himself, with the palantir. Over the years he would have fallen under Sauron's power almost as thoroughly as if he had born the Ring. Then he discovered that the son that he doted on was killed defending the (to him) worthless halflings. This drove him over the edge into insanity. His anger turned on Faramir, who in turn appeared to have been mortally wounded. His guilt and grief over this drove him totally insane.
But it was his own sins and mistakes that had brought all of this about, the responsibility was his, although Sauron and Saruman had added to the disaster. In his insanity he totally forgot the duty he owed to Middle Earth, and to the people of Gondor, and acted to indulge his despair, rather than to fight evil, to the death if necessary.
The way I understand it, the unforgiveable sin of Judas was despair, he felt that his crimes were too great to be forgiven. With all of his faults Denethor was redeemable, until he indulged in the unforgiveable sin of despair.
The sin of Judas was greed.
Matthew 27 said that Judas when he saw that Jesus was condemned (not in Judas' plan...) he repented and went to be forgiven by the Sanhedrin. They shrugged their shoulders at him telling him to see to his own sin. In anger, he threw thier money back at them... then he hanged himself.
Among many others, yes, but despair leading to suicide is not forgivable, whereas greed is. Greed alone would not have sent Judas to hell, his despair did send him there.
Not to belabor this, but an intelligent man, which Judas is generally thought to be, does not kill himself because he is angry at someone else.
Doesn't that site report rumors of POSSIBLE changes from the books, then say how reliable they are? If so, how reliable did they say this one was?
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