Posted on 03/14/2002 5:07:26 AM PST by HairOfTheDog
Fellowship of the Ring page 414...
"I shall go to Minas Tirith, alone if need be, for it is my duty," said Boromir; and after than he was silent for a while, sitting with his eyes fixed on Frodo, as if was trying to read the Halfling's thoughts. At length, he spoke again, softly, as if he was debating with himself. "If you wish only to destroy the Ring," he said, "then there is little use in war and weapons; and the Men of Minas Tirith cannot help. But if you wish to destroy the armed might of the Dark Lord, then it is folly to go without force in his domain, and folly to throw away." He paused suddenly, as if he had become aware that he was speaking his thoughts aloud. "It would be folly to throw lives away, I mean," he eneded. "It is a choice between defending a strong place and walking openly into the arms of death. At least, that is how I see it."
Frodo caught something new and strange in Boromir's glance, and he looked hard at him. Plainly Boromir's thought was different than his final words. It would be folly to throw away: what? The Ring of Power? He has said something like this at the Council, but then accepted the correction of Elrond.
Let's go to the Council of Elrond and see what Frodo is referring to. Page 300.
Boromir stirred, and Frodo looked at him. He was fingering his great horn and frowning. At length he spoke.
"I do not understand all this," he said. "Saruman is a traitor, but did he not have a glimpse of wisdom? Why do you speak ever of hiding and destroying? Why should we not think that the Great Ring has come into our hands to serve us in the very hour of need? Wielding it, the Free Lords of the Free may surely defeat the Enemy. That is what he fears most, I deem.
The Men of Gondor are valiant, and they will never submit but they may be beaten down. Valour needs first strength, and then a weapon. Let the Ring be your weapon, if it has such power as you say. Take it and go forth to victory."
Elrond then has a big long speech and ends with I will not take the Ring to wield it.
"Nor I," said Gandalf.
Boromir looked at them doubtfully, but he bowed his head. "So be it..."
Now, I don't think for a minute he gave up his purpose just because Elrond and Gandalf said the ring can't be wielded. What if Boromir held Elves and Wizards in the same esteem his father did? He gave in it seems, but on page 414, he still has the same strategy.
I do believe that Boromir was influenced by the Ring, but I do not believe that he was suddenly overcome. I believe, he came to Rivendell on a desperate mission: to find out what Isildur's bane was. He did not know it was the Ring of Power. Faramir said that Boromir thought it was a great weapon. His mission was to bring that weapon to Gondor to aid in the defense of Gondor and bring glory to himself.
So, when faced with returning home without it... he tried to take it from Frodo.
What say you...
What say you..."
Boromir is man overcome by sin. But he is not wholly Caine. There is something of Peter in him as well, in that he is used for good following his evil act. And there is a bit of the thief on the Cross as well--the death-bed understanding of how he has erred.
You guys are so much more advanced with this stuff. But I'm learning, I'm learning!
Mozie (who still wishes she could escape to the Shire for about a month.............)
I seriously doubt there will ever be a time when I can stop actively learning more about Tolkien. It's kinda like being a grad student, but without the long hours or the weird professors.
Denethor II was a proud man, tall, valiant, and more kingly than any man that had appeared in Gondor for many lives of men; and he was wise also, and farsighted, and learned in lore. Indeed he was as like to Thorongil as to one of nearest kin, and yet was ever placed second to the stranger in the hearts of men and the esteem of his father.It must have really stuck in his craw to find out that Thorongil was the rightful king!
Not really, if you count every picture that has ever been presented to him or his employees as involving him, that would leave nothing but the Christian 'rapture' movies not involved with him. As for his behavior in the Oscar campaigns, he probably learned it from Carville!
I disagree with some of the analysis of Denethor, and agree with a lot of it. Denethor as you quoted was the greatest man in his line for generations, and had the Numenorian vice of excessive pride in himself and his wonderful city. Like many fathers he put his hopes on his firstborn son, but the name he gave Faramir shows both his obsession with Boromir and his inadequate qualities as a father (something not uncommon with rulers, if you remember The Lion In Winter). It would really have grated on him that his father gave preference for an apparent commoner from the northern wilderness.
Then in his pride, he thought he could beat Sauron himself, with the palantir. Over the years he would have fallen under Sauron's power almost as thoroughly as if he had born the Ring. Then he discovered that the son that he doted on was killed defending the (to him) worthless halflings. This drove him over the edge into insanity. His anger turned on Faramir, who in turn appeared to have been mortally wounded. His guilt and grief over this drove him totally insane.
But it was his own sins and mistakes that had brought all of this about, the responsibility was his, although Sauron and Saruman had added to the disaster. In his insanity he totally forgot the duty he owed to Middle Earth, and to the people of Gondor, and acted to indulge his despair, rather than to fight evil, to the death if necessary.
The way I understand it, the unforgiveable sin of Judas was despair, he felt that his crimes were too great to be forgiven. With all of his faults Denethor was redeemable, until he indulged in the unforgiveable sin of despair.
The sin of Judas was greed.
Matthew 27 said that Judas when he saw that Jesus was condemned (not in Judas' plan...) he repented and went to be forgiven by the Sanhedrin. They shrugged their shoulders at him telling him to see to his own sin. In anger, he threw thier money back at them... then he hanged himself.
Among many others, yes, but despair leading to suicide is not forgivable, whereas greed is. Greed alone would not have sent Judas to hell, his despair did send him there.
Not to belabor this, but an intelligent man, which Judas is generally thought to be, does not kill himself because he is angry at someone else.
Doesn't that site report rumors of POSSIBLE changes from the books, then say how reliable they are? If so, how reliable did they say this one was?
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