Posted on 08/06/2024 11:12:14 AM PDT by SteveH
i believe texas has explicitly reserved the right to secede when it joined the USA. also the constitution does not prohibit other states and while the war between the states was fought over this, there was never a court case to determine this.
looking at a 2020 map of blue and red counties, it seems apparent that most counties favor trump. this can reasonably be expected to continue through 2024.
if the election fraud continues in 2024 as is widely anticipated, what would prohibit
1. texas state from peacefully seceding and forming an independent republic of texas
2. individual counties peacefully seceding from their states and joining texas.
i posit this as a peaceful alternative to (violent) civil war.
in this manner, most counties across the USA can peacefully secede, eventually leaving isolated clumps of socialist cities such as New York City, San Francisco, Boston, Atlanta, Philadelphia, etc.
Nothing would prevent such socialist cities from remaining in whatever is left of the USA once secession is complete.
The new republic of texas government could be a clone of the USA government, minus the 16th and 17th amendment.
this hypothetical proposal would be supported by the words at the beginning of the declaration of independence.
nothing in this hypothetical proposal should be construed as advocating violence.
That was to put the Union back together, after the South had listened to the honorable General Lee.
However, the state has more ways to bully the cities/counties than vice-versa. For example, state pensions and/or benefits could be denied to citizens in cities or counties that attempted to secede. This would create an internal enemy of all those citizens who feared the loss of income.
I know that California, by its very odd nature, is a bad example but:
A few years back a number of districts in Los Angeles wished to secede because they felt they were being denied a level of service owed to them due to the amount of tax revenue they generated for LA. These areas got poorer police protection, etc.
In order for them to secede they had to get a majority vote of all LA city voters. When these districts tried to do it on their own they always failed. However, one year three districts simultaneously petitioned to secede, including the San Fernando Valley with all of its residents.
However, the LA elites were clever and decided to provide top-level services in the months leading up to the election and the sheeple were fooled and not enough voted for secession.
A similar thing would happen at the state level. It's not just about sticks like the National Guard that the state would use, but also carrots that they would deny those who chose to secede.
The Second Civil War would be like Missouri was in the 1st.
The Left CAN NOT leave people alone. That is why they must be crushed. At least the Conf3crates wanted to be left alone.
Well that's a theory.
We are too intertwined. But, the left is a minority.
Ideologues, such as libertarians, are so wed to their ideologies that they value consistency more than practicality and will err on one side or the other.
There are all sorts of people who are "libertarian-ish" nowadays because of how bloated and corrupt our government has become, and I sympathize with them, but I still can't see joining forces with them.
To every Union Republic is reserved the right freely to secede from the USSR.But in practice, what did they do to Hungary in 1956?
This is a distraction. The real thing is to prepare for what the left will do in November and beyond.
(hypothetically) sticks and carrots implemented at the controlled land level plus availavility of guns in rural versus urban areas implies that red counties would prevail in the event of a land war.
this use of pejorative terms such as extralegal, bully, blackmail is not productive imho. can you restate your points, this time avoiding pejoratives? (it’s a good exercise in rhetoric if nothing else) (thanks). i will consider responding to neutrally phrased points.
If any state could possibly leave the Union, my bet would be on Oklahoma.
The courts have handed the tribes some pretty big wins in the past several years. They don’t really have to follow state law, and the state and local law enforcement can’t do anything with them. Bucking the feds could be next on their list. They are sovereign nations.
> The Second Civil War would be like Missouri was in the 1st.
also Kansas.
however that is violence. i am envisioning, as a mind experiment, non-violent resolution.
That is an interesting idea. If the Tribes seceded, what could the feds do now? There is no will to send the military at them. The horror stories from the past make that idea completely unworkable.
Might work when the tribes get rich enough. I don't actually know much about how well to do the tribes are in Oklahoma, but i've heard that some tribes have gotten wealthy off of Indian gambling.
Probably never happen, but it is an interesting theory. Of course there are tribal lands in New Mexico and Arizona as well as other parts of the nation.
Might could be a lot of mini-secessions in theory, but very unlikely in practice.
> Seems to me that whoever controls the military controls the dispute. Take note at the USSR’s 1936 constitution, Article 17:
> To every Union Republic is reserved the right freely to secede from the USSR.
> But in practice, what did they do to Hungary in 1956?
> Should the tragedy of the left taking over in 2025 occur (which I do not see happening, certainly not easily this time as in 2021 and no victory is assured the left), they would follow the same pattern as the USSR.
Well, those are all good points. From the hip, the only response that I can come up with at the moment is that I hope it does not go that way, if only because we have the USSR as such a recent historical example.
Santayana’s advice applies.
It is an interesting and dare I say even fun distraction. (for those of us who like to argue about this.)
The States created the Union, not the other way round. Unfortunately the States failed to demand the 10th be observed and here we are. Secession is not illegal just discouraged by tradition. Lincoln had no constitutional authority to prevent secession, but he had a better issue to support his position, than the South did.
I have known people from all over the nation. Oddly enough, I have known two men from Massachusetts that I consider friends. :)
I suspect that most of us can get along as individuals, but some of the collective ideas that others want to impose on us tend to make me feel less neighborly.
I would like to hear your explanation for how this is correct.
I know of a *LOT* of evidence that says secession is legal. I know of only a couple of bits of evidence to the contrary, (Madison's two letters) and those bits are contradicted by other information.
If, for example, your county officially petitions the state to secede and you get everyone in your county of voting age to sign the petition, and the state says 'No', then anything else you do is outside the law, or extralegal.
If your county then keeps state tax revenues and fees and doesn't pass them along to the state then that would be a violation of the law, and therefore extralegal.
If you repurpose state property for county use, that would be an illegal taking. If your county secedes from a state organization like a School Equalization Board, Coastal Commission, etc. then that would be illegal. If you fail to yield to legal state orders, either individually or as a county, that would be illegal. Just like resisting arrest.
For a long time AirBNB, Lyft, Uber, and other similar companies were encouraging many of their contractors to break the law by providing services without the proper certification. Maybe this wasn't bullying, but those cities that let these companies become too popular got a lot of pushback from customers and the corporate lobbyists when those cities tried to rein in the worst aspects of these giga-workers.
Uber is an example where a company was able to create a fait accompli and get many cities and states to cave and adjust their laws to accommodate an otherwise illegal operation. But even Uber hasn't achieved complete supremacy and now cities and states are fighting back with increased rules and regulations to protect communities and contractors from the worst aspects of these giga-jobs.
I don't think any city or county would fare as well if they tried to secede from their respective states by any combination of acts of commission or omission.
And as far as pejorative terminology goes, the mention of "the availability of guns in rural versus urban areas" would be viewed as highly pejorative and threatening by any state official who opposed secession.
> This is a distraction. The real thing is to prepare for what the left will do in November and beyond.
let’s say hypothetically say that the leading (R) candidate for POTUS in the 2024 election is (providence forbid) assassinated today during a political speech. following the hypothetical assassination, the DHS and SS give essentially the same tepid responses to requests for investigation of the successful hypothetical assassination that they have given thus far for the butler assassination attempt.
The (R) party has hypothetically then been reduced to a party without its chosen lead candidate by violence with what some would claim is some evidence of benign neglect at best or conspiracy/election interference/treason at worst.
Then what would be an appropriate non-violent response?
BOHICA?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.