Posted on 07/21/2024 6:36:22 AM PDT by DallasBiff
INDIANAPOLIS — a 29-year-old man was kiIIed following a road rage incident captured on a witness’s cell phone.
The incident was deemed self-defense and the shooter was released without being arrəsted.
(Excerpt) Read more at x.com ...
“... are you going to wait to see if they’re going to put a bullet through your head before ya drop them?”
I’ve had people pull guns on me before. I’m not making judgement on what happened. Just the law on how it can be interpreted.
wy69
You interpretated his appearance as deadly threat. Black’s Law Dictionary defines deqaly threat as:
A communicated intent to inflict imminent harm or loss on another or on another’s property.
If he was a deadly threat, then why didn’t it happen? When he raised the gun to tap it on the side of the vehicle, why didn’t he fire? And why did he lower the gun to the left side of his body to talk with the shooter? If it was imminent threat, these things wouldn’t have happened. So there is a question as to his intent. And that’s where the civil suit is going if it does.
wy69
“Then study up what constitutes a deadly threat.”
Look it up in Black’s Law Dictionary like I did. From the time the shot left his vehicle until the time he was shot, the gun was never pointed at the shooter. And that alone turns the act of deadly threat into assumption. Let alone why he didn’t do it if it was deadly threat. The opportunity was there but he didn’t.
wy69
OK, OK...whitney, an angry road raging person exiting their vehicle with gun in hand, walking right up to the victim seated in their vehicle is no threat and only a stupid person would ever see that as a deadly threat.
You win!
“You really have no idea the amount of time it takes either raise or point a gun held at the ready do you?”
Carried a side arm with the military, department of the army, and the DOD for many years. I was a much better shot with an M16 as I qualified expert for years. But I could get by with a handgun.
According to Dennis Tuller, a former SWAT officer, in drilling it take the average person with the right equipment around 1.84 seconds to draw and fire.
But let’s re-evaluate the situation. He got out of a car and never holstered it. We don’t know if the gun was loaded and charged. And he actually tapped it on the car door. So if his intent was to shoot the driver, and he had the opportunity as a small amount of talk did happen, then why didn’t he? He had plenty of time, but didn’t. So why wouldn’t there be a question as to whether he was using deadly force or not?
wy69
As a blanket statement, that is not correct in any State.
The aggressor was brandishing his weapon - which itself is a crime in many States. And he punched the driver with weapon in hand.
He did not need to point his weapon at the driver. He had just committed an assault and battery with a firearm in hand. That made him an imminent lethal threat in the laws of every State.
Yes, I had to take some training in self-defense laws. I am very certain of my interpretation. But you can check Andrew Branca, "The Law of Self Defense" pp 58 (The AOJ Triad) for a more complete explanation. That was our textbook.
As a civil suit this is not going to go anywhere.
Neither the facts, nor the law supports a "wrongful death" civil judgement against the driver where this event occurred. That might not stop a predatory lawyer from trying but odds of a jackpot award are very low. Lawyers for civil cases are in it for the money and do not pursue cases where the odds of favorable settlement are poor.
I understand from the limited report that the aggressor is of Indian ancestry (dot, not feather). So, getting a mostly Black jury that wants to punish some mean old White man for shooting a Black man isn't going to work very well.
Gun never came up. He switched it from his right hand to his left, and raised an empty right hand. Doesn’t matter though. The driver last saw the gun in the right hand and when that hand came up... Blammo.
The last thing the driver saw was a gun in his right hand. The driver couldn’t have seen the swap, so for all he knew, the gun was in the right hand. Anyone in the same situation would have believed the same thing. Split second decision had to be made. Not guilty.
Yes. The standard of determining liability is much less restrictive in a civil case.
“The driver couldn’t have seen the swap, so for all he knew, the gun was in the right hand”
That’s a thought but the driver did see the right hand get raised right in front of the driver’s side window to the roof of the car and it did not have the gun in it.
I’m not trying to be a devils advocate here. But that might probably come up in court. And the time to transfer the weapon and raise the hand to the roof of the car is more than enough time for the outside guy to have used the gun if it was intended...and he didn’t. And that’s why my original post brought these things up and mentioned the possible wrongful death suit would be interesting.
wy69
wy69
“As a blanket statement, that is not correct in any State.
Forty-four states have a provision in their state constitutions similar to the Second Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, which protects the right to keep and bear arms. The exceptions are California, Maryland, Minnesota, New Jersey, and New York.
However, a citizen in California can get a CCW from the County Sheriff’s department. In Maryland it’s called a wear and carry permit. Minnesota can issue a carry permit and it doesn’t mention concealed at all. New Jersey is now a shall-issue state with concealed weapons permits issued at the local level by municipal police departments or NJ State Police. And New York requires a pistol license to carry is issued to carry concealed. Concealed carry is only legal with a New York Pistol License (NYPL). According to what I can find, every state has a carry license of some type. The ones above info came from their web sites.
“And he punched the driver with weapon in hand.”
You may want to re-examine the film. He never punched the driver. He struck the car door only with his right hand and weapon and the driver’s window was never opened until the driver’s shot went through it.
Andrew Branca is a defense attorney whose job is to defend people for the self defense needs. Four elements are required for self-defense: (1) an unprovoked attack, (2) which threatens imminent injury or death, and (3) an objectively reasonable degree of force, used in response to (4) an objectively reasonable fear of injury or death.
“Neither the facts, nor the law supports a “wrongful death” civil judgement against the driver where this event occurred.”
We differ here. From what I saw the person shot did not point the gun, did not touch the shooter, or unless he scratched the car, didn’t harm that. Having a gun does not determine imminent deadly force. And calling people names doesn’t either. There was no deadly threat there. And if you go by the film. It proves that from what we can see.
Wy69
🏆 🥇
The combination of those factors absolutely establishes imminent deadly force. The firearm was not holstered, it was in hand. And the laws which apply are those of the State of Indiana.
See: Indiana Code § 35-41-3-2, which allows the use of reasonable force against an imminent threat and permits deadly force in specific situations without a duty to retreat. Indiana Code §§ 35-41-3-2(c), 35-41-3-2(d), 35-41-3-2(e), and 35-41-3-2(i) outline this: whatsoever for protecting the person or a third person by reasonable means necessary.
See Part (d)
(d) A person:
(1) is justified in using reasonable force, including deadly force, against any other person; and
(2) does not have a duty to retreat;
if the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other person’s unlawful entry of or attack on the person’s dwelling, curtilage, or occupied motor vehicle.
Furthermore, under Indiana code 34-23-2-1, a wrongful death claim can only be filed if the deceased would have been entitled to bring a personal injury claim had they survived.
Our decedent here was committing an unlawful act (aggravated assault and battery) when he was killed. He would not have been entitled to bring a personal injury suit.
The only possible success for a wrongful death lawsuit would be based on getting a racist jury that wants to punish a White man for shooting a Black man. That is a long shot in Indianapolis, and in this case, the decedent is an Indian man. It is not going to work.
Problem with the case is the shooter continued with the encounter when he could have backed off long before the guy got out to confront him.
I’ll have to go back and look at the video again… I saw him slamming on the drivers door and it looks like the gun was in his hand when he did that
“Indiana Code § 35-41-3-2”
You are quoting a piece of Indiana law, and my quoting is coming from 18 US code 924
(3)For purposes of this subsection the term “crime of violence” means an offense that is a felony and
(A)has as an element the use, attempted use, or threatened use of physical force against the person or property of another
Standing at the driver’s window, with his right hand on top of the vehicle, and his left hand at his side talking does not reach the level of physical force at any of the three descriptions. It is being assumed. The only force used in that sequence was from the shooter. The guy outside was the only person that was receiving physical force. And saying he used force against the car is not part of the sequence. That is over. It’s the same as if a person throws a knife at you, and it misses, can you shoot him if he is standing there calling you names? Nope, the threat is gone unless it returns and this one didn’t.
I’ve seen this before in cases. The one I really got interested in happened in Seattle where three kids broke into a house, one attacked the homeowner who shot him, the second brandished a gun, he got shot, but the third was shot as he was fleeing across the front yard. All three were killed. I agree with the first two. But the third one was no longer a threat and shooting him running away should have been obvious. The homeowneer was exonerated for all three in a jury trial. Interesting like this one. DEtails are sometimes over looked by juries tht play the emotion card.
wy69
Less than half a second to decide whether or not you’re gonna catch a round in the face from a road rager you KNOW has a gun in the same hand... Not enough time. That was all reflexive. He probably couldn’t have stopped if he wanted to. Gun in hand... same hand moves up very quickly. BOOM.
“...half a second...”
The time that I mentioned from the film and lesson I watched was around 1.8 seconds. Problem is that the only time the gun was ever seen to be near or aimed at the window was when he had the gun knocking on the auto. It went immediately down and we have no idea if he ws holding it finger on trigger because he didn’t knock on the auto that way. And he never raised it again prior to being shot. So the shooter shot someone not knowing if he was going to raise and shoot or not. Since no movement by the outside person was identified after he had lowered the gun to hip level, it creates an assumpltion he is going to use it cause we couldn’t see it. And that’s where the case gets interesting in how the cocurt is goping to prove he was intending to use it. And another possibility is since the person in the auto shot through the window, did he pull his with intent to use it before the outside person arrived? Especially since the outside guy didn’t appear to start the action to use his. So we’re back to assumption and no real proof of either intending to use their weapopns while one actually did. Like I said, an interesting case.
wy69
“...half a second...”
The time that I mentioned from the film and lesson I watched was around 1.8 seconds. Problem is that the only time the gun was ever seen to be near or aimed at the window was when he had the gun knocking on the auto. It went immediately down and we have no idea if he ws holding it finger on trigger because he didn’t knock on the auto that way. And he never raised it again prior to being shot. So the shooter shot someone not knowing if he was going to raise and shoot or not. Since no movement by the outside person was identified after he had lowered the gun to hip level, it creates an assumpltion he is going to use it cause we couldn’t see it. And that’s where the case gets interesting in how the cocurt is goping to prove he was intending to use it. And another possibility is since the person in the auto shot through the window, did he pull his with intent to use it before the outside person arrived? Especially since the outside guy didn’t appear to start the action to use his. So we’re back to assumption and no real proof of either intending to use their weapopns while one actually did. Like I said, an interesting case.
wy69
As a juror, I will not convict anyone of any crime for taking out the trash.
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