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To: DiogenesLamp

he appears to take the treaty with Britain in 1783 as our founding document instead of the Declaration of Independence.

He states that “these states came together as principals in 1787 and they created the federal government as their agent”

This ignores our first constitution, The Articles of Confederation which was ratified by 1781.

He seems to be selecting facts and events in a limited way to get to the conclusion he wants to get to, rather than taking in the historical events as they actually occurred.


8 posted on 06/29/2023 4:39:24 PM PDT by ChronicMA
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To: ChronicMA
he appears to take the treaty with Britain in 1783 as our founding document instead of the Declaration of Independence.

I'm glad you cite the Declaration of Independence. It explicitly says that people have a right to become independent from a government they see as no longer representing their interests.

And yes, the Declaration is our founding document. The Courts have ruled continuously that American Citizenship began July 4, 1776.

I'm sure Walter Williams has other reasons for believing the South had a right to secede, but he had only a little time, and so he started where he thought was best for his argument.

11 posted on 06/29/2023 4:42:13 PM PDT by DiogenesLamp ("of parents owing allegiance to no other sovereignty.")
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To: ChronicMA
Williams adheres to the Federalist Theology, as opposed to the Nationalist Theology, for the formation of the nation.

I explored that in detail during my Tea Party days.

Federalism: Yesterday and Today

13 posted on 06/29/2023 4:43:37 PM PDT by Publius
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To: ChronicMA
He seems to be selecting facts and events in a limited way to get to the conclusion he wants to get to,

I'll accept the writings of a known, proven scholar over an internet wannabe any day......

34 posted on 06/29/2023 5:00:34 PM PDT by Hot Tabasco
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To: ChronicMA

He’s not ignoring the constitution. He is recognizing that the states are sovereign, that they created the federal government and delegated some of their sovereign powers to it and that they reserved the right to unilaterally secede.

That is nowhere contradicted in the Constitution nor was that in any way contradicted in the Articles of Confederation.


54 posted on 06/29/2023 5:24:45 PM PDT by FLT-bird
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To: ChronicMA

“This ignores our first constitution, The Articles of Confederation which was ratified by 1781.”

The Articles of Confederation created the first union, stating it would be perpetual.

Then one by one the states left that first, perpetual union - seceded - and began to build a second union which did not claim to be perpetual.


56 posted on 06/29/2023 5:33:55 PM PDT by jeffersondem
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To: ChronicMA; DiogenesLamp
he appears to take the treaty with Britain in 1783 as our founding document instead of the Declaration of Independence.

He states that “these states came together as principals in 1787 and they created the federal government as their agent”

This ignores our first constitution, The Articles of Confederation which was ratified by 1781.

The Articles did not really create a federal government. There was nothing but a legislature with no power of taxation. There were a bunch of presidents nobody knows, such as John Hanson. It self-identified what it created as a "firm league of friendship." There were 13 free and independent states who entered a league of friendship to present a united front for defense and foreign affairs.

The Confederate states declared independence and a war ensued. Had they won, their independence would have been legally recognized as dating from their declaration. Having lost, they were never legally recognized as having achieved independence.

The original states declared independence and a war ensued. They won and their independence was legally recognized to date from July 4, 1776. The Paris Peace treaty established their independence retroactively to 1776.

Washington was inaugurated with eleven (11) states having ratified the Constitution. The eleven left the league of friendship and formed a new government, leaving NC and RI behind. The remaining two dissolved the league of friendship and went their own way. North Carolina held out for about six months before ratifying. Rhode Island held out for more than a year.

In between that, Vermont seceded in 1777 and established itself as a free and independent state by waging a successful revolution. It joined the constitutional union in 1791 as a free and independent state with self-appointed borders.

96 posted on 06/29/2023 8:36:52 PM PDT by woodpusher
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