Vanity - Help identify propellant in a target load

1/22/2022 | Kingludd

[KingLudd]

Greetings. I'm trying to reverse engineer a 38 special factory load that works well in a S&W Mod 52 - Winchester 148 gr. Mid-range wadcutter target load. Specifically, I could use some help identifying the propellant. Charge weight in the factory round is 2.6 gr. Projectile is HBWC. About 710 fps. Powder is flattened ball powder with a grey/silver color. It might be a blend, but if anyone has any ideas of what brand this propellant this is, please PM me. Thank you.

FRegards.

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[url=https://postimg.cc/Tyz0qSJB][img]https://i.postimg.cc/Tyz0qSJB/IMG-9103.jpg[/img][/url]

[Vermont Lt]

I used to use them to start campfires in Boy Scouts. You needed more than one.

[Lurker]

Looks like a Bullseye clone to me.

L

[fini]

Ahhh Bullseye. One of the oldest powders out there and still one of the best. Unfortunately, such light charges are used that a sloppy progressive press can cause some excitement at the firing range.

[smokingfrog]

How old is it?

[smokingfrog]

Esther might be able to tell you.

[lapsus calami]

 

 

Looks a lot like one of the shotgun powders. Some of which do give good performance in certain .38 special loads.

 

 

[KingLudd]

“How old is it?”

No idea.

[KingLudd]

I do like a woman who knows how to shoot.

[smokingfrog]

Some ideas here.

https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/231697-powder-recommendation-for-mild-38-spcl/

[smokingfrog]

My guess would maybe be a mix of clays and titegroup.

https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center

[dangerdoc]

I just tossed some wadcutter loads from the 80s.

Blast from the past when I opened the box.

Probably loaded over red dot.

[Chad C. Mulligan]

It is impossible to identify a pulldown powder by visual examination. Forget even trying.

Find charges for canister powders from published data.

[Paal Gulli]

This was everything I could find in my powder database (and QuickLoad doesn't have an extensive pistol powder db) that was as fast as Unique (646 fps MV) or faster.

According to QuickLoad (note the 1.160" COAL):

Powder ------- MV (fps)

Bullseye ----- 729
Red Dot ------ 802 (yes, eight-oh-two -- I triple-checked)
Green Dot ---- 759
Unique ------- 646
H-Clays ------ overpressure
Titegroup ---- 753
HP38 --------- 704
H-Universal--- 697
VV 320 ------- 750
VV 330 ------- 677
W-231 -------- 694

This was closest predicted to 710 fps MV:

Because of variability between lots of powder, differences in component particulars (brass, primers, etc) and seating depth, QuickLoad isn't at its best until you've tweaked powder properties so its predicted MV jives with what you're getting in the real world.

[Eagles6]

Probably a mix of Bullseye and Clays.

I've shot both and have them here.

Just go with 2.7 gr of Bullseye.

Nice powderpuff loads.

Great for beginners to learn with.

[Eagles6]

The gray flakes do, but they’re bigger than Bullseye and Clays, which are about the same size and the minimum charge of Unique is 3.5 gr.

[Dennis M.]

I wouldn’t reverse engineer a load unless I had a large sample size, a lab for chemical analysis, a pressure test gun and a financial reason to fool with it. Just saying..

[fatboy]

No one can answer the question “what powder is this” from pictures. Plain and simple you are getting guesses and nothing more. We (the hobby handloader) handload with canister powders, the commercial loaders use non-canister powder blends and you will never figure it out by looking at it and comparing to a canister powder. And mixing canister powders as some have suggested is a fools errand and a really dumb idea.

By way of example, Hodgdon doesn’t actually make any smokeless gunpowders. To use the example of Hodgdon Clays, up to about 6 or 7 years ago it was made in a factory in either New Zealand or Australia (I forget which) until they had a fire in the plant, a year later they resourced it from a plant in Canada. Most ball powders sold to handloaders in the USA come from a factory in St Marks FL regardless of the label.

Anyway, the best way to figure out what you want is first get a bullet that is the same, the exact same as your old factory round. Same weight, profile, diameter, finish and hardness. Then, take your chronograph and get some velocity numbers on the factory round. Then try to duplicate those numbers with several canister products loading within published data tables.

Now that I have told you the correct way to duplicate a factory load understand fully that I do not care one bit what you do or how you do it but I’m telling you how it’s done short of simply getting lucky. Some canister powders such as WST and Titegroup are temperature sensitive, they may lose velocity as the ambient temperature goes up. So even if you do everything I mention you still might not get it exactly correct under certain situations. But most of us mortals are not that accomplished marksmen for that to make a difference. In other words, close is good enough. Without chronograph numbers you are simply loading for feel and accuracy so the exact powder is irrelevant anyway. Get velocity numbers on the factory load first.

[Paal Gulli]

VV 320 -——— 750
VV 330 -——— 677
W-231 ———— 694

I might shouldn’t have put the double-vees next to the double-U but those are Vihtavouri 320 & 330 but Winchester 231.

[Pythion.net]

Regarding “reverse engineering” a factory load.
The naysayers are missing something. There is load data for all the commercial powders to keep you in the safe zone.
Reverse engineer away, just use the published load data to keep you safe.

[marktwain]

Good reply. Now what can I use .308 blank powder for?

It makes excellent improvised explosives, from manuals I have read...