You Were Duped Into Saying Yes. Is That Still Consent?

NY Slimes ^ | March 5, 2021 | Roseanna Sommers

[Stravinsky]

Imagine the following hypothetical situation: Frank and Ellen meet at a night course and end up getting drinks together after class several times. The drinks start to feel like dates, so Ellen asks Frank if he is married, making it clear that adultery is a deal-breaker for her. Frank is married, but he lies and says he is single. The two go to bed. Is Frank guilty of rape?

To most people, even those who consider Frank a dishonorable creep, the answer is clearly no. The law agrees: In most American jurisdictions, Frank is not liable for any tort or crime, let alone something as serious as sexual assault.

But why? This question has been a source of contention among legal experts for decades, ever since the law professor Susan Estrich argued that the law of rape should prohibit fraud to procure sex, just as the law of theft prohibits fraud to secure money. Ellen did not consent to have sex with a married man, the argument goes, so the sex she had with Frank was not consensual.

To many feminist legal scholars, the law’s failure to regard sexual fraud as a crime — when fraud elsewhere, such as fraud in business transactions, is taken to invalidate legal consent — shows that we are still beholden to an antiquated notion that rape is primarily a crime of force committed against a chaste, protesting victim, rather than primarily a violation of the right to control access to one’s body on one’s own terms.

[BiteYourSelf]

Yup he identified as unmarried.
We must respect his choices.🤔

[Deaf Smith]

When my last ex said she liked pickups, I thought she meant trucks.

I kicked her out 17 years ago.

[Vermont Lt]

These days googling someone is pretty standard. Frank would be outed in 2.3 seconds.

[KC_Conspirator]

They are also trying to do this if a person says they are a high earning guy, but actually an out of work musician.

[KC_Conspirator]

Here is an idea; do some actaully vetting before letting a guy you barely know raw dawg u
w

[KC_Conspirator]

Well said. Apparently there is no accountability anymore for ones life dating decisions. Heres and idea; How about doing some vetting before having risky sex with randos? Maybe some personal standards? I feel like Im shouting in gale force winds on this one.

[dangus]

So are you arguing that sexual integrity is worth nothing?

[Albion Wilde]

Any male who thinks that a woman is born in heavy makeup and a huge push-up bra doesn't deserve to see her or any woman out of her clothes.

If I were a man who wanted to marry and have children, and I was not aware that my bride, prior to meeting me, had acquired a nose job, fake boobs, colored contact lenses, laser hair removal, jaw surgery, a chin implant, liposuction, botox, and skin resurfacing until I laid eyes on my firstborn daughter, I would feel cheated or defrauded.

[edwinland]

So are you arguing that sexual integrity is worth nothing?

No and your question demonstrates that the professors (deliberate?) confusion of civil and criminal law is working.

I'm saying that her analogy doesn't work. She argues that deception should vitiate consent, as it might in contract law, and that laws on rape are somehow deficient in not providing the same remedy. But that's not true. A contract is constructed of two parts: offer and acceptance. Take away one of those (acceptance) and you have no contract. But you don't have a crime.

Fraud can also be a criminal matter, but the fact that a contract is ruled null and void doesn't automatically become a criminal matter every time, and so her suggestion that she's just asking for the same remedy in rape law that you find in contract law is wrong. And she probably knows it.

[Albion Wilde]

If a woman beds down and marries a rich man with the intent of divorcing him in couple of years and leaving with a bag of cash, would anyone suggest arresting her for robbery?

I think if the case could be substantiated by texts or testimony from her BFFs, it should invalidate "no-fault" and reduced her takeaway. I feel the same about men who marry only to produce an heir and then dump the mother, accuse her, and sue her mercilessly to obtain sole custody for himself (and his new girlfriend). Both these situations are fraudulent. They are hard to prove, though; and "no-fault" casts too wide a net in the family courts.

[stylin19a]

>>What happens when the girl is just really horny in the heat of the moment and says yes. And then regrets it.<<

or she finishes and he hasn’t finished and she says stop.

[Albion Wilde]

My wife and I have an understanding. I don’t date other women and she doesn’t kill me in my sleep and bury me in our pasture.

Sounds fair.

[thecodont]

She knows the man is not married to her.

This wraps it up.

[wardaddy]

Marriage is hardly permanent either these days

[wardaddy]

That happened to a lot of men...me too

I’m 18

Later they dress up

Of course I grew up when consent was younger ...like 13-15

And that was all that mattered

Now it’s gotten ridiculous

It’s an area where prudes and feminists intersect paradoxically in a super permissive culture

Age of consent

Today an 18 year old boy can be charged for sex with a 16 year old

[wardaddy]

Not enough

And if there were my Johnson would be anesthisized

[wardaddy]

Chuckling out loud

“No Honey Of course I never got spit roasted on quaaludes in the 70s at Mississippi State honey”

“That was another Chi Omega girl....I didn’t really know her”

[wardaddy]

How did you do all that....