Roseanna Sommers
Posted on 03/05/2021 1:31:50 PM PST by Stravinsky
Imagine the following hypothetical situation: Frank and Ellen meet at a night course and end up getting drinks together after class several times. The drinks start to feel like dates, so Ellen asks Frank if he is married, making it clear that adultery is a deal-breaker for her. Frank is married, but he lies and says he is single. The two go to bed. Is Frank guilty of rape?
To most people, even those who consider Frank a dishonorable creep, the answer is clearly no. The law agrees: In most American jurisdictions, Frank is not liable for any tort or crime, let alone something as serious as sexual assault.
But why? This question has been a source of contention among legal experts for decades, ever since the law professor Susan Estrich argued that the law of rape should prohibit fraud to procure sex, just as the law of theft prohibits fraud to secure money. Ellen did not consent to have sex with a married man, the argument goes, so the sex she had with Frank was not consensual.
To many feminist legal scholars, the law’s failure to regard sexual fraud as a crime — when fraud elsewhere, such as fraud in business transactions, is taken to invalidate legal consent — shows that we are still beholden to an antiquated notion that rape is primarily a crime of force committed against a chaste, protesting victim, rather than primarily a violation of the right to control access to one’s body on one’s own terms.
(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...
add this hook...Ellen has HIV and doesn’t tell Frank...
Imagine a woman arguing that it would be rape if she consented to sex with a heterosexual cis-male, but the person was actually a transgender male, using a strap-on.
I imagine nobody who is for this idea of “rape by fraud” would be on the side of the woman in that case.
Roseanna Sommers
I met her in a club down in old Soho
Where you drink champagne and it tastes just like coca cola
C-O-L-A, Cola
She walked up to me and she asked me to dance
I asked her her name and in a dark brown voice she said Lola
L-O-L-A, Lola
La-la-la-la Lola
Well, I’m not the world’s most physical guy
But when she squeezed me tight she nearly broke my spine
Oh my Lola
La-la-la-la Lola
Well, I’m not dumb but I can’t understand
Why she walked like a woman but talked like a man
Oh my Lola
La-la-la-la Lola
La-la-la-la Lola
Well, we drank champagne and danced all night
Under electric candlelight
She picked me up and sat me on her knee
And said “Dear boy, won’t you come home with me?”
Well, I’m not the world’s most passionate guy
But when I looked in her eyes, well I almost fell for my Lola
La-la-la-la Lola
La-la-la-la Lola
Lola
La-la-la-la Lola
La-la-la-la Lola
I pushed her away
I walked to the door
I fell to the floor
I got down on my knees
Then I looked at her and she at me
Well, that’s the way that I want it to stay
And I always want it to be that way for my Lola
La-la-la-la Lola
Girls will be boys and boys will be girls
It’s a mixed up, muddled up, shook up world, except for Lola
La-la-la-la Lola
Well, I left home just a week before
And I’d never ever kissed a woman before
But Lola smiled and took me by the hand
And said “Dear boy, I’m gonna make you a man”
Well, I’m not the world’s most masculine man
But I know what I am and I’m glad I’m a man
And so is Lola
La-la-la-la Lola
La-la-la-la Lola
Lola
La-la-la-la Lola
La-la-la-la Lola
Same could be said of woman wearing a push-up bra and heavy makeup.
Is Ellen a Tranny?
And you “imagine” incorrectly!! I find the premise of the article worth serious consideration. Lying is inherently fraudulent.
Yes but if "legal consent" is nullified in a business transactions then the transaction is treated as if it never happened. Neither party gets sent to jail.
Yeah, no. Roseanna ain’t gonna have that problem.
I can just imagine the response of a man making a rape complaint against a tranny who claimed to be a biological woman.
Indeed. Many of these same “feminists” also say hat trannies are legitimately what they claim to be. Have sex with a tranny or be erased, bigot!
If the argument here is that using fraud to get sex is akin to rape, then so should using fraud to win an election. Any lawyer here willing to take that case on?
If you pay a prostitute with counterfeit money, is it rape (on top of passing counterfeit money)?
It's an issue of object permanence, not consent issues. Any male who thinks that a woman is born in heavy makeup and a huge push-up bra doesn't deserve to see her or any woman out of her clothes.
That’s not rape. The ny slimes just wants to criminalize heterosexual sex.
False advertising is false advertising.
I understand that The military used to teach soldiers if you take advantage of someone who has been drinking it’s rape.
So both are guilty of rape in that scenario.
What happens when the girl is just really horny in the heat of the moment and says yes. And then regrets it.
What happens when the guy, let’s call him Meatloaf, in the heat of the moment promises he will love her until the end of time. And ends up praying for the end of time.
Guilty.
It is, but it does not inform “consent” as it applies to action.
Imagine if you could charge a crime if, when you showed up for a blind date, the person was shorter, or fatter, or older, than they said on their profile.
Imagine if you could charge a hitchhiker with breaking and entering, if, after allowing them into your car, you found out they really wanted to go somewhere further than they promised, or that the story they told you to get you to pick them up turned out to be a lie.
Imagine if you could be sued after getting your food delivered, if the delivery person had a personal rule against delivering to republicans, and your profile said “none” for party affiliation?
Fraud applies when you lie to obtain a service, but consensual sex is not a service; and in fact by it’s very nature, there can be no contract for it, because even a sex worker has the absolute right to say “no” at any point in an encounter, and you can be charged with rape if you do not comply.
Without a contract, how can it be considered “fraud” to have lied about it?
Now, if we want to make a new crime of ‘lying about marriage to get sex”, then we can consider it, but I don’t think we should apply the existing rape laws to this new definition.
Here’s an interesting thought: A man, 21, meets a girl in a bar. She says she is 21, he takes her home and has sex with her.
Turns out, she is 16, she had a fake ID, and lied about her age.
Now — he is possibly going to jail for statutory rape.
But, by the argument in this thread, she could also go to jail for rape, because he only had sex with her because she lied about her age.
Interesting in general, could we always convict someone of rape if it turns out they were a different age than they told us? Or a different religion? Or if they said they were interested in marriage, but it turns out they were not?
If you get engaged, and have sex, and break off the engagement, can the woman or man prosecute you for rape? What if you get married, and have sex, and then divorce, since you promised “til death do you part”, and that was the contract under which sex was procured?
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