Posted on 03/18/2020 4:48:53 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
A statue of the Angel Moroni sits atop the Salt Lake Temple in a 2015 photo. The temple was damaged Wednesday in an earthquake that also dislodged Moroni's trumpet.
(CNN)The 5.7-magnitude earthquake that shook Utah Wednesday morning also dislodged a symbolic part of Salt Lake City's iconic Mormon temple: the trumpet of an angel statue atop its highest spire.
The temple is the spiritual focal point for the 16 million members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
"The trumpet on the Angel Moroni statue fell off, and there is minor displacement of some of the temple's smaller spire stones," said Daniel Woodruff, a spokesman for the church.
(Excerpt) Read more at cnn.com ...
I was on staff with CCC at MSU from '81-83, so we may have!
well small world. didn’t do CCC, did Chi Alpha instead.
I spent a year in Montana in the 70's...A couple of months in a place called Hysham (that was an experience)...Rest of the time in Billings...
God's Country...
Montanans are great people.
I bought a volkswagon in Billings. At the time, Bozeman had a dealer with just 6 or 8 cars (total) on the lot. Drove to Billings, to the "big dealer". They had something like 40(!) cars.
Since it was Montana, I didn't need to spend the extra $1,000 on an air conditioner... then I went to seminary in Texas!
Ended up selling it to a seminary graduate heading to Minnesota.
I myself have already pretty much clearly shown the God of the Bible is not the Mormonic exalted (by obedience to another god) physical man-God and who is married to the Heavenly Mother, begetting spirit-children, but who is Spirit (Jn. 4:24) and always was God. (Ps. 90:2)
And that He alone, by Himself created all things, (Is. 44:24) and which itself means Christ is God by nature since all things are said to be made thru Him. (Col. 1:16) And who took upon Himself flesh and blood, (Hebrews 2:14) which is not what a spirit by nature has. (Lk. 24:39) And to whom is ascribed Divine attributes, titles, worship and glory that only the being called God as described as having .
Meanwhile the Spirit is also described as being creator, Job 33:4) and as a person to whom lying to can result in death, (Acts 5:1-11) and believers are to be baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Spirit, (Matthew 28:19) which also denotes oneness.
All of which means that either Christ and the Spirit is God by nature along with the Father and thus demand a doctrine of trinity, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; (Colossians 2:2) or that the Scriptures contradict themselves and blaspheme God. Take your pick.
You can only wish your polygamous exalted man-God and had the Scripture warrant for the Trinitarian understanding of God, but that is why you must exalt other writings as also being Scripture, with the Mormon church being the supreme authority. __________
In addition, even if no one was here to defend Christian doctrine then that would not excuse your lack of actual substantiation for Mormonic doctrine, and instead the former charge is poor excuse for the lack of the latter.
If you reject Christ’s words in John 17:20-22 because it doesn’t fit your Christology .
What is the presumption and problem here: John 17:20-22 refers to oneness, "as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee," thus referring to oneness in the sense that as the Father was in Christ so Christ being in believers makes them one with God, which in the present tense, "that the world may know that thou hast sent me." (v. 23) And which is elsewhere described, without any contradiction, that of God/Christ by His Spirit being in believers, (Romans 8:9; 1 Corinthians 3:16; Eph 2:21,22)
Which simply does not refer to being one by nature, as if believers eternally prexisted as God or now are Divine or will be God in what essentially defines Him as God, which the Son of God we worship possesses.
... how about Christ’s ascension in Mark 16: 19 ¶ So then after the a Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. So...the Lord, Christ ascended to heaven and sat on the right hand of God??? So is Christ as Lord secondary to God? God has a right hand? He’s not a mystical three-in-one; one in three; sometimes one but never three; sometimes three but never one?
Your problem here is presuming that sharing the same eternal nature as the Father means there can be more distinctions in position and function without that militating against , which is simply untenable.
Six time sin the O.t. Gopd refers to Himself in the plural, and while a husband and wife are one by nature, yet there is an order in that union, for it followed the order within the Trinity:
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3)
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name," "the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you." (John 14:26; 16:13-15)
Thus the Spirit says what Christ tells Him from the Father, who is properly called God as being the head, while Christ is also called God without contradiction, being God by nature, not an exalted physical man.
Yet 2,000 years ago Christ became a partaker of flesh and blood, (Hebrews 2:14) "And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." (Philippians 2:8)
And thus the Father, the head, make Him functionally the Lord over creation, "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ." (Acts 2:36) For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. (1 Corinthians 15:25-28)
Thus in the end, the Father will resume His lordship overall creation, but the Son's position did not make Him God nor take away from it, but it is His by nature. And thus in end all creation with give worship to God, some joyfully, and the damned as by compulsion of fact:
And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever. (Revelation 5:13-14)
Therefore contrary to your premise of functional and positional distinctions meaning there cannot be one being, this is how we see the God of the Bible being described. But if you have a problem with that, the how much more you should have a problem with your polygamous exalted physical man-God and his heavenly mother begetting Christ and Lucifer and the rest of Mormonic perversions. Which problem is what you must deal with, and and alleging a lack of warrant for our beliefs will not do. But if you will actually attempt to defend your false God/Christ/gospel, why not actually argue for the actual basis for the veracity of these claims? Which is that of the self-proclaimed ensured veracity of the LDS (latter-day-sophists).
Now that’s a good story...
Had a good ending!
I volunteered to drive delegates to the republican convention in Dallas, using that van...
You should’ve heard that flight-lagged, sweaty van full of delegates complain that I didn’t have an air conditioner!
Good times!
Would hardly recognize that campus today. Added a ton of new buildings. I like to think we Montanans are great people since I R one. :)
What did I say that was dishonest? That God the Father is above all?
I think your honesty meter is broken .... I hear it happens when all you listen to is fake news.
Sorry I can’t answer everyones post .... but Iscool definetly winds the prize since he responds with biblical scripture.
As you are all discovering .... there is NO Trinity in the New Testament. The term was first coined by Tertullian in his letter ‘Against Praexeus’ ... however, don’t be fooled the ‘Nicene Creed’ paragraph that some corrupt monk/copier inserted into the text, because the entire 20? page letter is an argument why Christ and God the Father ARE NOT the same being. As with Origen, Tertullian definetly were not Trinitarian, but believed similar to my beliefs that Jesus Christ was the literal Son of God the Father.
Congratulations Iscool ... since I have never considered the Col 2:9 quote before ....
Yet all of your quotes still do not exclude the ‘oneness’ of God and Christ as being “purpose’ instead of ‘individual’.
Please consider a couple of questions: The Athenasian Creed/Doctrine of the Trinity state that God and Christ are Coequal ..........
...... and yet, all of the scriptures that you cited clearly identify God as God, and Christ as Lord. Clearly God is superior to Jesus Christ, as Christ does the will of the Father.
BIG QUESTION .... is it possible for God the Father to have knowledge that Christ the Son does not have???
According to the Doctrine of the Trinity it would be impossible for the two to not have the same knowledge .... yet there are many scriptures where Christ states that his knowledge is incomplete compared to the Father.
So my next challenge for you to answer: Do God and Christ know the same knowledge? .... or is it possible the the God side of the Triune holds out a little on the Christ side of the Triune?
Yet another failure of the Triune God teaching when compared to the scripture.
Doctrine of the Trinity/Atheasian Creed says God, Christ and the Holy Ghost know all things ….. and yet here are a few examples of God and Christ not having the same knowledge or understanding.
Mathew 24: (35) Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mark 13: (32) But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Luke 2: (52) And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
Luke 22: (42) Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
I left in in ‘83. The town has exploded since then.
I wonder what ever happened to the mormon guy who started posting here,
then said he’d only answer questions if they specifically referred
to mormonic beliefs from their writings, then didn’t do it??
Did he take off again?
Also ....who said God the Father doesn’t have a body? ....certainly not the Bible:
- God created man in his own image, Gen. 1:27 (Moses 2:27).
- God created man, in the likeness of God made he him, Gen. 5:1.
- in the image of God made he man, Gen. 9:6.
- Lord went his way, as soon as he had left communing, Gen. 18:33.
- I have seen God face to face, Gen. 32:30.
- they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet, Ex. 24:10.
- written with the finger of God, Ex. 31:18 (Deut. 9:10).
- Lord spake unto Moses face to face, Ex. 33:11.
- thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen, Ex. 33:23.
- With him will I speak mouth to mouth, Num. 12:8.
- a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, Matt. 3:17.
- every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God, Matt. 4:4.
- a voice out of the cloud, Matt. 17:5.
- for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have, Luke 24:39.
- the Son of man standing on the right hand of God, Acts 7:56.
- predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, Rom. 8:29.
- Christ, who is the image of God, 2 Cor. 4:4.
- Who, being in the form of God, Philip. 2:6.
- our vile body … fashioned like unto his glorious body, Philip. 3:21.
- Who is the image of the invisible God, Col. 1:15.
- the express image of his person, Heb. 1:3.
- men, which are made after the similitude of God, James 3:9.
- when he shall appear, we shall be like him, 1 Jn. 3:2.
- they shall see his face, Rev. 22:4.
see also Gen. 33:10; Deut. 4:28; Acts 17:29; Col. 3:10.
Doctrine of the Trinity/Atheasian Creed says God, Christ and the Holy Ghost know all things
It does? You mean "true God from true God" disallows that and thus the incarnation as well.
and yet here are a few examples of God and Christ not having the same knowledge or understanding.
Well then there are also other seeming contradictions, such as that "He that keepeth Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep," (Psalms 121:4) yet Christ did in His incarnation, thus you must disallow Christ from being God in nature.
Which leave you with a greater set contradictions, if Christ was not Divine, such as I already linked to , which includes the fact that God states,
Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; (Isaiah 44:24)
Yet,
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (Colossians 1:16)
Of course the solution is not to allege a contradiction as you must, and reject the eternal Divinity of Christ, much less make Him the product of your Heavenly Mother and her exalted man-god, and physical intercourse with Mary, but to understand that limitations were part of Christ taking upon human flesh, not grasping at all that deity afforded Him.
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. (Philippians 2:6-8)
That condescension is one of the many aspects that show the God of the Bible to far superior to the god of Islam, which is akin to what you make Christ. But whom you are not at all ready for:
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (Revelation 1:8)
The Ghost of Joe Smith isn’t happy with the new directions of the Church! They are turning their back n the traditions of the LDS Church. One good thing—They seem to be going back to Polygamy.
Shrug
I didn’t think he’d honestly answer anyway...
You guys were busy, CCC, Chi Alpha? In the 80s, I was in TERPS. Does that count for anything? 😀
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.