On this day in 1864

[Bull Snipe]

Leading elements of Union Major General George G. Meade's Army of the Potomac cross the Rapidan River. With a few hours they would clash with General Robert E. Lee's Army of Northern Virginia in the Battle of the Wilderness. Lieutenant General Grant's Overland Campaign had begun.

[BroJoeK]

jeffersondem: "Pearl Harbor was a sneaky way for the Japs to start WWII.
Fort Sumter was a sneaky way for Lincoln to start his war."

Well... the Japanese high command attempted to warn Americans but were prevented, iirc, by translation delays.
And of course Lincoln fully warned SC Governor Pickens, almost a week in advance, so there was nothing "sneaky" about it.

Regardless, Jefferson Davis cared little for such niceties:

"There would be to us an advantage in so placing them that an attack by them would be a necessity, but when we are ready to relieve our territory and jurisdiction of the presence of a foreign garrison that advantage is overbalanced by other considerations."

And if Fort Sumter did not give Davis the war he needed, then he'd already ordered Bragg to begin Civil War at Fort Pickens:

"The case of Pensacola then is reduced [to] the more palpable elements of a military problem and your measures may without disturbing views be directed to the capture of Fort Pickens... "

Of course, being Democrats it's the nature of posters like jeffersondem and DiogenesLamp to blame Republicans for things their own fellow Democrats did.

---

Jefferson Davis orders his generals Bragg & Beauregard to start war at Forts Pickens & Sumter:

[BroJoeK]

HandyDandy: "It was the third of June, another hot and dusty delta daaayaay. I was out picking cotton and my brother was bailing haaaaayaaay......"

Ah, June 3rd, I remember that day.

[dfwgator]

Solely in the interest of seeing this thread reach 1000 posts, I must say, “It was the third of June, another hot and dusty delta daaayaay. I was out picking cotton and my brother was bailing haaaaayaaay......”

The Tiananmen Square Crackdown started June 3rd, 1989.

[jeffersondem]

” . . . but when we are ready to relieve our territory and jurisdiction of the presence of a foreign garrison . . .”

The Confederacy viewed the presence of U.S. troops in the South after legal secession as the presence of a foreign garrison.

That much is clear from the quote in your post.

[rockrr]

It wasn’t a “legal secession” by any means.

[HandyDandy]

That is an interesting comment. Are you saying that Davis was justified in attacking Sumter? .........just because it was there?

[HandyDandy]

I think he was just getting in a little typing practice. He obviously pulled that incredibly profound statement out of his butt. The profound stupidity and incorrectness is incalculable. I think he was going for the quad lutz,.......and didn’t quite make it.

[jeffersondem]

“Are you saying that Davis was justified in attacking Sumter?”

War can never be justified, unless . . .

It is a just war.

War can be justified under the strict principles of the Declaration of Independence, e.g. “consent of the governed” and “most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.”

War can be justified under the Constitution, e.g. if a successful regional presidential candidate were to seize control of the U.S. military and attack sovereign states in violation of the ninth and tenth amendments.

[jeffersondem]

“Are you saying that Davis was justified in attacking Sumter?”
War can never be justified, unless . . .

It is a just war.

War can be justified under the strict principles of the Declaration of Independence, e.g. “consent of the governed” and “most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.”

War can be justified under the Constitution, e.g. if a successful regional presidential candidate were to seize control of the U.S. military and attack sovereign states in violation of the ninth and tenth amendments.

[jeffersondem]

“The profound stupidity and incorrectness is incalculable. I think he was going for the quad lutz,.......and didn’t quite make it.”

Supposed in-group members influencing each other to determine disqualifying out-group stereotypes.

[jeffersondem]

“It wasn’t a “legal secession” by any means.”

Is that what you say?

[rockrr]

You included a pull quote in your post to me but it is not anything that I said.

[jeffersondem]

“You included a pull quote in your post to me but it is not anything that I said”

Sorry, collateral damage. I was aiming at someone else.

[HandyDandy]

So........ you are saying that Davis was justified in attacking Sumter. Thanks for playing.

[HandyDandy]

“Supposed in-group members influencing each other to determine disqualifying out-group stereotypes.”

If I had a nickel for every time you have posted that stolen phrase, I’d be able to make my own graph, like the one your friend is always posting. You really ought to properly attribute the words you type.

[jeffersondem]

“You really ought to properly attribute the words you type.”

Your post 966 contained a suspiciously intelligent introduction (”That is an interesting comment.”)

Likewise your post 956 (”That is a very interesting comment.”)

Someone has influenced your writing; which means someone has influenced your thinking.

There is much more work to be done.

[BroJoeK]

jeffersondem: "The Confederacy viewed the presence of U.S. troops in the South after legal secession as the presence of a foreign garrison."

So, do you now agree Davis ordered Civil War to begin at Fort Sumter?
It seem like such an obvious point, but one which our Lost Cause mythologizers spend endless posts denying.
So, are you breaking with their orthodoxy?

[BroJoeK]

jeffersondem : "War can be justified under the Constitution, e.g. if a successful regional presidential candidate were to seize control of the U.S. military and attack sovereign states in violation of the ninth and tenth amendments."

That is... ahem, an interesting comment.
Can you cite the Constitution's article and section which says as much?

[BroJoeK]

HandyDandy: "So........ you are saying that Davis was justified in attacking Sumter.
Thanks for playing."

Seems like such an obvious point, but I don't remember seeing a Lost Causer admit it, whether justified or not.

[BroJoeK]

The first three quotes — Jefferson, Madison & Jackson — are fakes, as best I can find.

The quote from van Buren seems genuine, though not clear what his term “corporate authorities” actually referred to.

The quotes from Cleveland, the Roosevelts and Eisenhower do look genuine and support the Progressive Trust Buster agenda.

Sadly, for DiogenesLamp, none of those quotes blame all political evils on “Northeastern Power Brokers”.

But maybe some otbers do?