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New State of Water Molecule Discovered by federal researchers
UPI ^ | April 25, 2016 | Brooks Hays

Posted on 04/25/2016 8:48:38 PM PDT by nickcarraway

"This is in complete disagreement with accepted models based on the energies of its vibrational modes," said lead researcher Alexander Kolesnikov.

Scientists at the Department of Energy's Oak Ridge National Laboratory have observed water molecules behaving unlike gas, liquid or solid states.

Researchers discovered the new state while subjecting water molecules to extreme confinement.

When water molecules were pushed into nanoscale tubes or channels in the mineral beryl, the water molecules become delocalized around a ring, with each molecule adopting "an unusual double top-like shape."

Researchers described the new molecular state in the journal Physical Review Letters.

"This means that the oxygen and hydrogen atoms of the water molecule are delocalized and therefore simultaneously present in all six symmetrically equivalent positions in the channel at the same time," lead study author Alexander Kolesnikov, of ORNL's Chemical and Engineering Materials Division, said in news release. "It's one of those phenomena that only occur in quantum mechanics and has no parallel in our everyday experience."

This spreading of water molecules when confined was not just unexpected, it breaks the rules of classical physics. The behavior, known as "tunneling," describes a molecule passing through a barrier without the energy required to do so -- in other words, it defies physics.

"The average kinetic energy of the water protons directly obtained from the neutron experiment is a measure of their motion at almost absolute zero temperature and is about 30 percent less than it is in bulk liquid or solid water," Kolesnikov said. "This is in complete disagreement with accepted models based on the energies of its vibrational modes."

Because the confinement measured at ORNL is comparable to the experience of water molecules trapped in rocks, soil and cell walls, the novel findings are expected to have real-world impact on the discussions happening within a variety of scientific disciplines -- cellular biology, geology and more.


TOPICS: Science
KEYWORDS: molecule; water
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To: map
However, I was let down to learn that this state exists only near absolute zero ...

Well, "near" is a relative term. We may note that molecules can exist only in a state "near" absolute zero, i.e. temperatures much less than the surface of the sun. The physicist relishes this sliding scale, which appears in all things.

21 posted on 04/25/2016 10:33:41 PM PDT by dr_lew
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To: nickcarraway

“This means that the oxygen and hydrogen atoms of the water molecule are delocalized and therefore simultaneously present in all six symmetrically equivalent positions in the channel at the same time,” lead study author Alexander Kolesnikov, of ORNL’s Chemical and Engineering Materials Division, said in news release. “It’s one of those phenomena that only occur in quantum mechanics and has no parallel in our everyday experience.”


Translation: this can only happen because the particles are, in fact, simply waves. There is no wave-particle duality, there are only waves that sometimes appear to us to behave as particles. What the scientists are describing is two symmetrically opposite standing waves superimposed on each other.


22 posted on 04/25/2016 10:36:44 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: UCANSEE2

“Of course, this implies the molecule can ‘think’, and alters it’s own structure for survival.”

No it doesn’t, any more than water turning to ice implies it can “think”. It is simply responding to the environmental conditions, according to the same laws that molecules always follow, which can basically be summed up as “assume the most efficient configuration to minimize energy loss”, aka, take the path of least resistance.


23 posted on 04/25/2016 10:45:05 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: dr_lew
Well, "near" is a relative term.

"The average kinetic energy of the water protons directly obtained from the neutron experiment is a measure of their motion at almost absolute zero temperature and is about 30 percent less than it is in bulk liquid or solid water," Kolesnikov said.

I suppose "almost", as used in the UPI article, is more scientifically precise than "near".

I would just like to know what this new physical state of matter is like without personally approaching absolute zero.

By the way, I don't believe in plasma.

24 posted on 04/25/2016 10:48:57 PM PDT by map
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To: Boogieman
There is no wave-particle duality, there are only waves that sometimes appear to us to behave as particles.

Well I say, there are only particles which sometimes appear to us to behave as waves! How about that!

25 posted on 04/25/2016 10:50:56 PM PDT by dr_lew
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To: map
My college physics professor's PhD thesis was creating a test set up to show tunneling of superfluid helium at ultra-low temperatures. They created two tubes connected by a hole that was too small for the helium to penetrate according to classical physics, but was able to get through from one tube to the other via quantum effects.

This phenomenon might be similar in origin.

26 posted on 04/25/2016 10:51:46 PM PDT by who_would_fardels_bear
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To: map
By the way, I don't believe in plasma.

That's rich! Luv ta hear it. Link, whatever.

27 posted on 04/25/2016 10:56:02 PM PDT by dr_lew
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To: dr_lew

It’s an untenable proposition.

I can easily posit a physical model to explain how a wave can appear to be a particle (in fact, those models already exist), but there is no sensible way for you to posit a model to explain how a true particle could appear to be a wave. The best and brightest minds for over a century have tried, and the best they came up with was “well, it changes into a particle if we happen to be looking at it, then it stops when we look away”, and that is not behavior that would be compatible with these things actually being particles.


28 posted on 04/25/2016 10:56:29 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: map

“I don’t believe in plasma.”

So, what is your hypothesis for how fluorescent light bulbs work?


29 posted on 04/25/2016 10:57:45 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: dr_lew

I believe in the big three- solid, liquid, gas. This article hasn’t changed my beliefs.


30 posted on 04/25/2016 11:01:15 PM PDT by map
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To: Boogieman

“So, what is your hypothesis for how fluorescent light bulbs work?”

I haven’t thought about it until you mentioned it. Is a fourth state of matter the only possible explanation? I will look into it.


31 posted on 04/25/2016 11:05:29 PM PDT by map
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To: dr_lew
There's this interesting (but ultimately disturbing) talk by one of today's great experimentalists Anton Zeilinger:

Quantum Information & the Foundations of Quantum Mechanics

Evidently soon after the discovery/creation of quantum mechanics Bohr and Einstein started having arguments about what physics was all about.

Einstein said it was about finding out what actually exists.

Bohr held that it was about finding out what can be said.

We may be forever denied the ability to actually know what the universe is made of, but even Zeilinger who seemed to lean toward Bohr's answer held out hope that Einstein might ultimately be found to be right.

32 posted on 04/25/2016 11:06:48 PM PDT by who_would_fardels_bear
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To: map
Plasmas are a known fourth state of matter. I believe the gas in a fluorescent tube becomes a plasma when in operation.

Ylem is a proposed fifth state of matter that occured in and around the time of the Big Bang.

33 posted on 04/25/2016 11:09:49 PM PDT by who_would_fardels_bear
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To: Boogieman

“...well, it changes into a particle if we happen to be looking at it, then it stops when we look away”, and that is not behavior that would be compatible with these things actually being particles.”

Did you teach HS physics in 1963? You are quoting the same source as a well respected teacher I knew.


34 posted on 04/25/2016 11:10:53 PM PDT by map
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To: who_would_fardels_bear

Do you really believe there is a distinct fourth state of matter? I haven’t thought about the possibility in many decades. How is plasma different from a gas? Enough so to be a new “species”?

And as for Ylem- big bang... really?


35 posted on 04/25/2016 11:16:25 PM PDT by map
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To: map
From Wikipedia:

"Plasma (from Greek πλάσμα, "anything formed"[1]) is one of the four fundamental states of matter, the others being solid, liquid, and gas. A plasma has properties unlike those of the other states."

36 posted on 04/25/2016 11:17:44 PM PDT by who_would_fardels_bear
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To: who_would_fardels_bear

“Einstein said it was about finding out what actually exists.”

I’ll go with Einstein.


37 posted on 04/25/2016 11:18:34 PM PDT by map
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To: who_would_fardels_bear

I just checked the Wikipedia entry. It mentions fusion, neon signs and intergalactic matter.

The three states of matter we know and love seem to apply to most elements and compounds and are determined by temperature. This plasma business seems to be determined by electrical charges. Plasma doesn’t seem to fit into the same category as the big three. It’s a stretch.


38 posted on 04/25/2016 11:28:24 PM PDT by map
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To: nickcarraway

Relative to quantum mechanics Einstein said, “God does not play dice with the universe.” This is one of the few occasions that Einstein was wrong.

Unfortunately none of our greatest physicist understand the game of quantum dice. They know the results but do not understand why. Quantum mechanics is a strange universe.


39 posted on 04/25/2016 11:53:46 PM PDT by cpdiii (DECKHAND, ROUGHNECK, MUDMAN GEOLOGIST PILOT PHARMACIST LIBERTARIAN, CONSTITUTION IS WORTH DYING FOR)
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To: JoeDetweiler

Did you ever try to clean the inside of a nanotube?


40 posted on 04/26/2016 2:31:19 AM PDT by Paladin2 (Live Free or Die.)
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