Posted on 06/12/2015 8:30:49 PM PDT by MHGinTN
He backed it up with what he believes is evidence. If you have a problem with that, find the courage to say so in detail, rather that taking drive-by pot shots.
Otherwise you'll be mistaken for a punk.
Thank - but I spelled “imminency” wrong! Lol.
There are two theories of Christian eschatology. The first is that the present dispensation of the Holy Spirit will continue till all nations shall be evangelized, "the fullness of the Gentiles be come in," drowning out the unbelief of the Jews till "all Israel shall be saved." After this period of gospel triumph Christ will wind up the probationary history of the human race by the simultaneous resurrection of the good and the bad and the general judgment, assigning them to their eternal destinies.
Then again, amillennialism and postmillennialism have always sounded similar to me--much more similar to one another than to the premillennial positions, certainly.
Also, the Early Church Fathers covers from Clement of Rome and Justin Martyr all the way to Gregory the Great in the late 500s/early 600s. They were not "to a man" premillennialist (of any variety)--for example, Origen and Augustine of Hippo, who were amillennialists--although many of the earliest of them were.
You are right, Steele must have been postmillennialist. I didn’t read your link close enough.
When I said ECF, I meant the Ante-Nicene Fathers. I have the full set, which I have had for about 30 years. The Origen-Augustine apostasy had fully set in by the 500’s and 600’s you speak of, concluding with the Papacy. I consider their system, including their millennial doctrine, false. Yours, and Steele’s, eschatology a derivation of theirs.
The ECF I speak of were indeed to a man premillennialist. Their eschatology preceded that of Augustine and the Papacy. The ECF I speak of, being closer to what was handed down from the apostles, we would expect more closely to reflect the true eschatology. Known today as Historic Premillennialism. Which, as I pointed out in my previous post, was not dispensational nor pretrib.
Thankfully, even the Apostolic Fathers recognized that belief in ‘historic premillennialism’ wasn’t a test of orthodoxy. After all, even Justin Martyr acknowledged that “many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise” about historic premillennialism, even in his own time period.
True, but the system ultimately to be ensconced in the Papacy had yet to be systemized. Augustine holds that dubious honor...Augustine several hundred years future from Justin.
Apparently, from what I can gather, it was but elementary ideas of Amill that were around in Justin’s day. Justin not considering it any threat to “pure and pious faith” at that time. Were he transported several hundred years into the future to Augustine’s day, and wrote about it, I think his words would reflect something quite different.
"For sll the saints and the elect of God are gather prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins." Quoted from 'On The Last Times, the Anti-Christ and the End of the World' Ephraem of the Eastern Tradition
Roger Olson has a good essay on the difference between orthodoxy and 'fundamentalism' on his blog.
Pseudo-Ephraem has about as much credibility as the “German Rabbi of great devotion, Rabbi Judah ben Samuel” you mentioned earlier. You do realize ben Samuel was a Kabbalist don’t you? Do you really consider Kabbalism to be “great devotion?”
In his day ,by the Jews of his day, he was revered. I used his Elijah vision to emphasize the imminence, which is of course what the Bible teaches regarding Jesus coming for His own. The Bible verses are the key, not Rabbi ben Samuel’s prophecy. Being in Christ is the issue, not Jerusalem. I will use the prophecy as an attention getter, to get folks to trun to Christ and make ready, if it will accomplish that. It does not mean I endorse Kabbalism. You don’t find it interesting that the time periods given in 1216AD/1217AD appear to have lined up with what actually happened?
I cite Ephraem the Syrian because we have negative neybobs on these threads that insist the notion of Rapture is a nineteenth century creation. It is not. It can be found in many Historiacal documents/discussions dating even to 100 AD.
If you can get past the typos, pingaling.
But...have you yourself seen ben Samuel's "prophecy," the actual document? We prophecy guys have been hearing about this for some time now, there's been a lot of hype about it, but people can claim anything. Not only that, documents can be forged after the fact. The document, if there really is such a thing, and its not manufactured out of thin air, needs to be brought into the light of day for examination.
Neybobs they are. But the issue, to pre, mid, and post tribbers, is not whether there is going to be a rapture, but when does it take place.
Luther’s outlandish, violent antisemitism isn’t hard to learn about... He published constantly.
Most folks worship him for what he did to the Church of Jesus Christ, Disciples & Co. but (as on this thread) laugh at you if you bring up any details about who the guy was.
These, of course, are the same folks who will yap for hours about the inner meaning of the syntax in Kaneesha’s letter to the Librarians as recounted by Ramalamadingdong (300 years after Jesus’ crucifixion) Chapter 4, Verse, 32...
“The Devil is in the Details,” in some cases maybe literally!
Think about your faith. Ponder the 10 Commandments. Remember when He says I AM THE LORD... And what he says next.
Remember Sinai, and how weak we are, how we love a graven image... Something else to worship... And call a spade a spade and a Christian a Christian!
Love
G
To give you more fuel for ... discussion, here’s a link to a website of Jewish origin which gives details on Judah ben Samuel: http://destination-yisrael.biblesearchers.com/destination-yisrael/2012/12/rabbi-judah-ben-samuels-jubilee-prophecy-gives-the-year-of-the-messiah.html
I asked a Karaite Jewish man his opinion of Kabbalah, he minced no words, he said it was witchcraft, which God condemns. Having read their material, I agree. Making Golem’s out of clay, to serve the Rabbis, and such like. Kabbalists are nothing more than witches and warlocks.
And this Kabbalist Rabbi ben Samuel, and his fellow Kabbalists looking to promote Kabbalah, is what you consider an impeccable source? Do you do the same with Dan Brown and his Divinci Code source material? The Koran?
There was nothing in this link you sent me, that addressed my point. Where’s the proof? Lets see this document the Kabbalists have had in their keeping all these centuries.
I hope you never spill tack on the carpet ... I have not even approached saying this is an impeccable source. Your effort to stand up that false characterization tells me to stop exchanging with you. Have nice day
Why leave out 2 Thessalonians 2? Why leave out Revelation 20?
In the twinkling of an eye we will be changed into SPIRITUAL BODIES.
and where it talks of the Air, it means in a breath.
May I suggest a Strongs Concordance that translates words from the Greek, Latin and Aramaic?
Once you actually understand the words used and what they actually mean, then the Bible is easy to understand. See, Revelation? the word means to REVEAL! The End Times are NOT supposed to be a mystery
Also Father said in (Ezekiel I think, don’t have my Bible here by the PC) that he was against those who would put pillows (ie COVER) His outstretched hands and those that teach His children to FLY to save their Souls.
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