Posted on 01/17/2015 7:24:31 AM PST by the scotsman
'A sordid tale of lesbian sex, murder and seduction in a Catholic convent in 19th-century Rome has been discovered in a secret Vatican archive.
The Sant'Ambrogio scandal involves a beautiful young sister who convinced the nuns she was experiencing visions and visits from heaven - then made them engage in rampant sexual activity.
Herbert Wolf, a leading scholar of the Catholic Church, learned of the Sant'Ambrogio scandal when he became one of the first allowed into the archives of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.
The naughty nun also entered into an erotic relationship with a theologian on the pretense he was possessed, and is thought to have murdered three other sisters.
But when a German princess fled the convent in disgust, a sex scandal hidden behind a habit for many years was unveiled.
Wolf, a professor of ecclesiastical history at University of Muenster, Germany, made the discovery and has retold it in his book The Nuns of Sant'Ambrogio.
Written in German, the controversial never-told-before tale has been translated into English for the first time.'
(Excerpt) Read more at dailymail.co.uk ...
Thanks, Tech. I agree. Just used to start up more anger.
Try to “dredge about those scandal-mongering sites.”
We do need to look at the empirical facts. If a bunch of evangelicals of different stripes really ARE throwing this kind of old junk in the face of the modern Roman Catholic church, then it is reasonable to ask why.
However, I think the premise will fail. It is more likely a small number of malcontents who might not even agree with half the people in their own congregations.
Luke 7:50
Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”
Luke 7:50
Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”
I did go ahead and read that other thread all the way through -- before posting reply to you.
It is why I pinged annalex -- due to his own comments on that thread. He said two things in one sentence. One part was correct, but the other part was not. I explained to him just why I included him. That is proof enough I read the "other" thread.
So yet here again, your own comments toward me are just another big 'ol swing-and-a-miss.
You've got nothing much. Just a bunch of conjecture that the structure possibly could have been a purpose-built crypt --- which ignores needing to overcome how on an old map of the place found from within Irish "government" filings (on the County level, I think it was) dated 1928 (if memory serves) indicated there was a sewage tank -- right about precisely where the bones of many infants and children were found in 1975.
So tell me. What "facts" am I missing? All your own commentary here is just so much "forum statement" hand-waving.
I pointed towards a few facts many may have missed. Did you catch those?
Like -- the bones found in the "tank" (whatever that was) being piled in a seemingly disordered fashion (as one might presume would be the case if the bodies had been lowered from the top) compared to those which a woman claimed to have seen, that were stacked neatly upon shelves?
Now I don't know if that woman referred to saw what she claims to have seen -- or not. But I do know that was among various things reported in conjunction of that Tuam 'mother and baby home" issue, in Ireland itself...
Do you have any idea how many long hours I put into searching, reading, comparing and evaluating, everything which was being said about this issue, six months or more ago?
Likely more than anyone else around here...
The "it was a crypt" claim -- I WAS already well enough acquainted with, having read that in it's most original "article" (when it broke as response to the 'story') and watched that then later become proclaimed as "fact" --- when it was just a possibility -- at best.
So much for the word "hoax" to be connected with the story in widest sense. Doing that -- is itself a "hoax" of sorts -- for it too casually dismisses all evidence and considerations to the contrary of the desires of [Roman] Catholics to see their own Church ecclesiastical community in nothing but the most heroic and righteous of light.
Now about the lesbian nuns book...
We could jokingly observe Herbert Wolf was possibly taking a page from Howard Stern on 'how to be a success" in media (even as Wolf was investigating 'official' RCC records)?
Caution: profane subject matter ahead. Do not read past the sub-heading of the chapter which that self-declared "king of all media", Howard Stern's entitled "My Philosophy"
which means what?
REALLY?
Matthew 15:16
"Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them.
Yet; here you are...
You're being a bit SELECTIVE it seems...
I don't approve of scandal-mongering which targets LDS, either.
Don't you realize that I'm referring to YOUR words above?
Is exposing the FALSE TEACHING of Mormonism 'scandal-mongering' in your world?
Boo hoo.
Ok; be reasonable: ask.
Let me deal with just one of your points, BlueDragon--- one which is quite sensible. I'll get to the others if I have time. (French Onion soup on the stovetop right now.)
"Herbert Wolf, a leading scholar of the Catholic Church, learned of the Sant'Ambrogio scandal when he became one of the first allowed into the archives of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith"."Wolf, a professor of ecclesiastical history at University of Muenster, Germany, made the discovery and has retold it in his book The Nuns of Sant'Ambrogio."
And when those in authority heard of what was going on at that place -- what happened? They shut the place down. So-- what 'scandal' is that for the Roman Catholic Church itself?
This is a very good point, and thanks, BlueDragon, for bringing it up. The author of the Sant'Ambrogio book, repeatedly called Herbert Wolf in the article, is Hubert Wolf, a legitimate ecclesiastical historian. He apparently wrote this account to appeal to those with University backgrounds in his field, because the customers over at Amazon who gave it low scores all described it as "dry," "dense," "legalistic," "too technical," "too academic," "page after page of scrupulous Vatican investigations, canonical charges, and due process" etc. Evidently not a bodice-ripper.
It's the Daily News which decided to skip all the social and legal history and go straight for the lesbian jiggery-pokery, making it sound like some sort of "Eurotrash horror story," in the words of one of the customer reviewers. Several others said it was disappointing to readers who were motivated principally by "prurient interest" --- although others found it prurient enough to repay their having to slog through the "presumption of innocence," forensic evidence standards and "witness protection" provisions of an 1859 Canonical Investigation.
There was an embezzler, lesbian and inveterate liar who got control of a convent in Rome in the 1850's; she was investigated by Church authorities and found guilty of peddling miracles, sexual predation, theft, attempted murder, and murder. All the evidence was handed over to the secular authorities and the criminal sister got jail time.
So you're quite right, BlueDragon: the story itself does not cast a scandalous light on the Catholic Church per se. The Church prosecutors did an excellent job. End of the story, except for the many pages of academic footnotes.
It's the Daily News, I would say, which decided to report this as some kind of Dan Brown Gothic murder mystery. They took out all the parts which were of legal or historic interest, left in the dirty bits, and headlined it like something from the supermarket tabloids.
Then came certain FReepers who shall remain unnamed (thought you can get their names by scanning this ugly thread) who specialize in scandal and defamation, and you get yet another platform for vicious generalizations against the Catholic Faith and the Consecrated Life.
I am disgusted. Where is the edification for our brothers and sisters here? Where is the grace? How I wish we in the Religion Forum would follow the standards of St. Paul:
Ephesians 4:29
Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for timely edification according to the present need, so that it will give grace to those who hear.
Not that I know of. Frankly puzzled by this one.
M’dear fellow redneck, I’m too young to remember Ken-L-Ration jingles. Something about dogs?
Colossians 3:8
But now you also, put them all aside: anger, wrath, malice, defamation, and abusive speech from your mouth.
Ephesians 4:29
Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.
Ephesians 4:31
Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, slander, evil talk and detraction, along with every form of malice.
1 Peter 2:1
Lay away all malice, and all guile, and evil speech, rivalries, and all detraction.
2 Corinthians 12:20
For I am afraid that when I come I may not find you as I want you to be, and you may not find me as you want me to be. I fear that there may be discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, defamation, gossip, arrogance and disorder.
Philippians 4:8
Finally brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable--if there is any moral excellence and if there is any praise--dwell on these things.
No.
Discussions about doctrine are different from tabloid treatment of lurid sex scandals.
You can see that, can't you?
It’s not defamation if it’s true.
Right?
L
The other points require nothing much in the way of reply, other than for persons here to possibly review things overall, and possibly see that I'm not the bad guy, nor was I saying anything which could not be substantiated -- although I do confess to not supplying links for each and every aspect of the overall discussion which I went into...
To have done so would have taken many hours of my time to re-find and reconstruct all which I have read on the subject. I was just reading yet more on related matters (Magdalena Laundries, adoptions, and re-unification with birth mothers of some of those born under conditions similar to Tuam, etc.,)
But back to those of the sort which Howard Stern tantalized & capitalized upon, [lesbians] and your own response to my own comments;
Yes. If anything, due to how quickly an end was put to the shenanigans once those came to light, it could be seen as a positive credit to higher-up church 'authority'.
As possible tempering, or reduction of sorts towards the rapid response;
There could possibly be some consideration due to the relationship the woman
which possibly expedited the response.
In comparison, in many organizations beyond that only of "within the RCC", complaints are often seemingly set aside either as unsubstantiated, or 'fantasy' of those who bring the accusations, etc.
Sometimes -- as we all have seen -- accusations of most any type one could think of -- are nothing more than 'fantasy' on the part of the accuser, and thus are false allegation.
It can be difficult to sort out fact from fiction. No?
for textual coverage of the story from outside the daily mail web pages, there is http://www.floridanewstime.com/feed/national/89578-lesbian-sex-seduction-and-murder-by-nuns-in-a-catholic-convent-incredible-tale-of-debauchery-exposed-by-a-princess-found-in-secret-vatican-archive.txt which bypasses all the rest of the daily mail celebrity gossip garbage...
As for answer why coverage of this is allowable on the pages of FR --- if it's being talked about ---- then even if a story is "wrong", then those who have some interest in persons or institutions which could be effected by the "news" of things such as this are forewarned of the perturbations of "the force"? Luke -- I am your papa? hehheh
So there can be that sort of positive aspect of it all. To be fore-warned is to be fore-armed..?
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