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Mentally Ill Man Refuses to Take Medication So SWAT Shows Up and Kills Him
FreeThought Project ^ | December 2, 2014 | Matt Agorist

Posted on 12/03/2014 8:55:50 PM PST by Altariel

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To: Tired of Taxes
I agree but the line should be drawn when needed meds to keep the patient from being a risk are refused by the patient or are not being taken.

I can tell you one worse. In many states your spouse has a mental breakdown OR a medication reaction the doctor labels as mental illness YOU the spouse have no legal say in the treatment. You can not sign you have no input unless you have a written medical POA. The attending doctors will call the state in and the state decides. This is first hand information not hearsay. My wife had an adverse reaction to antidepressants causing a Serotonin Migration to her brain with symptoms similar to LSD or acute psychosis.

I wanted blood work done and an MRI or CT of her brain. The doctors six to be exact said no. I had no say. I knew something other than mental illness was going on and I proved them right but it took nearly five days. I did what the doctors didn't do I looked up the meds for adverse reactions.

I used to work in a county contracted nursing home in the maintenance dept. The nursing home had about 50 persons from the enlightened exodus from a mental hospital they had been in. One we called Pain and Agony. Give him string and he would tie it around his private and try to hang it. These persons could not function in any environment and needed round the clock watching. Not locked up as such but watched.

I can say this much for certain. In the early 1970's when I was an early teen I could safely walk downtown at night. By 1976 it had changed. Persons were being put out on the street creating significant homeless issues that lead to crime like breaking into vehicles. About that same time my dad began to carry where he worked because he had to park under an interstate bridge and got off at midnight. Today Knoxville, Tennessee is a homeless Mecca known throughout the eastern states. You can look at the sheriffs arrest logs and many are homeless drunk and disorderliness. IOW self medicating with alcohol. It likely has the largest homeless shelter in the southeast. Lots of Administrative wages to be earned running a NPO shelter.

In this article the mans family requested he be checked on. Right now in most states that duty falls upon the LEO's. LEO's are not mental health professionals. A trained team of staff in a mental facility including Orderlies can usually subdue a patient if needed with minimal risk to all but they have Meds they can administer ASAP that work ASAP. Cops Don't. Then again I saw a 4'10" almost 80 year old woman where I used to work take on the entire floor staff of about six.

Sometimes it was funny. One woman on third floor had her own private paid phone. She called 911 and said there was people having a party in her room and a man outside her window dancing naked. The cops showed up because they have too and asked where the patient was. We said third floor and they laughed and told us what was going on. In the mean time she had barricaded herself in the room with the bed LOL.

61 posted on 12/05/2014 1:03:27 AM PST by cva66snipe ((Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?))
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To: greeneyes
Cops in many states are the transporters of mental patients to mental facilities. It usually begins with the cop taking the person to the ER for evaluation. This happens many times nation wide with no notable problems. Usually the state is called in as well or is in my state once the patient arrives at the ER. If a committal or hospitalization is required and the person says no the state {meaning psychologist and LCSW's along with attending ER doctor} can hold them for up to 72 hours IIRC if they believe they are a threat to harm themselves or others.

Under no circumstances I know of do paramedics respond or transport mental patients. LEO's are used to transport usually a reserve officer or jailer. Thus the family if they thought he needed help would have to call the Cops. It stinks but that is the reality of it.

People are not realizing that Mental Health Care Laws & Regulations are not the same as Medical ones. Family has little or no say.

62 posted on 12/05/2014 1:41:11 AM PST by cva66snipe ((Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?))
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To: Rockpile

Well, it makes sense that the police would be worried, especially when everything is put into that perspective.

With all of the additional details given on this thread now, I’d say this particular case is a tough one to call.


63 posted on 12/05/2014 8:42:35 AM PST by Tired of Taxes
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To: Altariel
Okay, is this one of those cases where the victim is the good guy and the cops are the New World Order? 'Cause that's the way it used to be. Then all of a sudden the cops were the good guys and the victims were the New World Order.

It's getting very confusing.

64 posted on 12/05/2014 8:56:32 AM PST by Zionist Conspirator (Throne and Altar! [In Jerusalem!!!])
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To: cva66snipe

You totally missed my point. The law is totally irrelevant. I have a choice of action. Call the cops or don’t call the cops. I would choose to deal with it myself, instead of calling the cops.

Just because the law is ignorant, doesn’t mean I have to be.


65 posted on 12/05/2014 12:26:17 PM PST by greeneyes (Moderation in defense of your country is NO virtue. Le//t Freedom Ring.)
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To: greeneyes
And you are totally missing my point. What if the person needs to be in the hospital and says NO? What can you do even as a spouse? LEGALLY YOU CAN'T DO NOTHING! YOU CAN'T TAKE THEM THERE AGAINST THEIR WILL AND SAY PLEASE HELP. YOU HAVE NO LEGAL STANDING TO DO SO UNLESS YOU HAVE A MEDICAL POWER OF ATTORNEY THAT SPECIFICALLY STATES YOU CAN MAKE THESE DECISIONS FOR THEM IF THEY CAN'T.

IF your family member breaks a leg or neck, needs a heart transplant, has a stroke, you can sign permission for treatment even surgery. The laws of treatment for mental illness are not the same. I've told you plainly how it works. That doesn't mean I agree with it I'm just telling you the legal facts.

The family knew the man, they likely knew what it would take to get him help and took the only legal and allowed remedy available to them to get him needed help.

So when does family finally get input? When at the hospital the state or county mental health crisis team shows up. They will probably listen to you. No one else will. Again I do not agree with this as a protocol I'm just saying how it is.

So who should respond then? IMO a team of medical staff of at least a Nurse and two orderlies from a mental hospital who have the training, skills, experience, and MEDICATIONS ON THEIR PERSON to if needed safely get the person to needed help. That was the old system and it worked.

Thank liberal lawmakers, activist judges, and patients rights lawyers, for getting it put off on the Cops and the government calling the shots. Many counties including my own rural one the deputies likely take at least one person a day to a mental facility. In most cases it all goes OK. It is when the patient become combative all hell breaks loose. You don't hear about the thousands of routine transports done daily each day by law enforcement that are successful. Why a cop? Because the patient is handcuffed and placed in the back seat where they can not hurt anyone. Again the paramedics in most places do not transport mental health patients.

ONLY IF THE PATIENT IS WILLING & MENTALLY CAPABLE TO SIGN FOR THEMSELVES PERMISSION FOR TREATMENT CAN YOU TAKE THEM IN AND GET THEM HELP ON YOUR OWN. If not you are S.O.L. Only LEO can take over.

66 posted on 12/05/2014 1:03:01 PM PST by cva66snipe ((Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?))
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To: cva66snipe

Look dude, I have had some experience in such situations with relatives. They all said no initially, but we achieved what needed to be done without calling the cops.

I do have power of attorney for people in my immediate family, because that is the logical, smart, and well prepared thing to do.

The cops can’t do anything that the family can’t, cops are more likely to shoot the person, and cops are not likely to be as persuasive as a trusted family member.

I do agree that using medical personnel trained to deal with such individuals is better than the current system.

Calling the cops turns a bad situation into a potentially deadly situation. I wouldn’t do it. Ymmv.


67 posted on 12/05/2014 1:28:31 PM PST by greeneyes (Moderation in defense of your country is NO virtue. Le//t Freedom Ring.)
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To: cva66snipe
I want to add a little more hear so maybe some will understand. My wife began having hallucinations and was not in her right mind. I took her to the ER myself. I had to take her because she is an incomplete quadriplegic. When we got there the attending ER doctor without so much as blood drawn said transfer to a mental hospital and he contacted the state Mobile Crisis Team. They were the ones who could order it. I said what about test. He said no. She had a stroke and heart history that warranted this but he didn't do it.

I called our daughters and when I went back in she was unconscious in an exam room curtains close, guard outside and still in her wheelchair. I found her and said get help in here STAT. A nurse came in and said OMG. The doctor walks in and I yelled do something mental illness doesn't cause this. He said NO. I said you Stupid ****. My dad and I loaded her up in the van and took off for hospital ER number 2. She arrive unresponsive and unconscious. They got her conscious and asked me what happened. I told them and again they said Transfer. I made my concerns known and they were dismissed. Mobile Crisis showed up after 12 hours and I talked to them. They said No to the transfer after I explained her history.

In five days time no blood work got done no scans were done. But they took her off all meds but but gave her Ativan. In about three days she was normal. In walks a shrink we had never seen before. He said increase the Zoloft. Next day at noon in walks nurses and gives her the pill. At 1:00 an hour later she was back where she was hallucinating again. Even though a quad she has fair arm and hand movement. She had to be restrained to the bed to prevent beating herself black and blue.

I went home to get some sleep and my dad stayed. I stopped off at the hospital chapel and said some prayers then went home. I got on line and looked up Zoloft +Trazodone +Adverse reactions that is how I found out what was wrong it was Serotonin Syndrome.

The hospital knew they had screwed up bad and then did a MRI and found two brain bleeders. One an old one from years past and a second one caused by Serotonin Syndrome. The Mental Health Protocols and Laws Stink that is the problem at hand. The media never addresses this now do they? No but they sure as hell show up for pictures when things go wrong with the Cops are called on to do mental health care.

She still has partial amnesia of the event and can't remember a few events in our life.

I've signed for several surgeries for her. I've signed her name as often as I sign my own with no POA required. But if she has another such episode {very unlikely as the cause was discovered} the laws forbid my say.

68 posted on 12/05/2014 1:30:20 PM PST by cva66snipe ((Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?))
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To: greeneyes

Maybe you need to read 68


69 posted on 12/05/2014 1:31:37 PM PST by cva66snipe ((Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?))
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To: cva66snipe

Oh yea the reason for the meds. Simple basic clinical depression and PTSD. She would not hurt anyone. Oh and our Primary Care Doctor thanks to hospital Rules never once received notification or had input in the care given.


70 posted on 12/05/2014 1:34:20 PM PST by cva66snipe ((Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?))
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To: Altariel
"This incident is but another tragic example of the level police incompetence when dealing with the mentally ill."

Oh, Bravo Sierra.

I do not care if he was sane or mentally ill, white black, brown or tattooed.

When someone attacks armed officers with a machette, they are most likely going to be shot...and for good reason.

71 posted on 12/05/2014 1:39:28 PM PST by Jeff Head (Semper Fidelis - Molon Labe - Sic Semper Tyrannis)
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To: Jeff Head
Jeff, I've seen "TRAINED" staff in a head injury/spinal injury rehab unit that managed to subdue a patient holding a broken Coke Bottle threatening them and himself with it. The difference is they are trained and experienced and have the medication means to chemically subdue a patient in seconds once they grab them if talking doesn't work. Cops are not mental health professionals. They were placed in this equation by the courts.

Many times the ones who blame the COPs will also scream bloody murder that mental patients are being kept against their will in some case and violating their rights.

72 posted on 12/05/2014 1:48:41 PM PST by cva66snipe ((Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?))
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To: Jeff Head

Where are the wounds from the attacks? Pictures?

What’s that? The officers *found him in the bathroom, allegedly holding machete* The only confirmed wounds from a weapon are the bullet wounds in his corpse.

Huh. Fancy that.

You know, if one party wasn’t wearing government costumes, one would conclude that they attacked him. But of course we know that wearing a government costume protects one from such accusations.


73 posted on 12/05/2014 7:51:13 PM PST by Altariel ("Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!")
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To: Hetty_Fauxvert

She should have learned a lesson.


74 posted on 12/05/2014 8:11:04 PM PST by sport
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To: cva66snipe

I believe you are right about how that policy changed society around 1976. I was just a kid then, but I was around to see it all happen. Indeed, many of the homeless are people suffering from mental illness. Or sometimes a tragedy sends an otherwise mentally healthy person off the deep end, and that person checks out, just starts living on the street.

Still, I can understand both sides of the argument:

(1) the side that wants to ensure loved ones are given the best care, and

(2) the side that wants to ensure that people who are no danger to themselves or others are not institutionalized against their wishes.

In high school, one of the teens who was institutionalized briefly told of how an adult female patient at the mental hospital tried to assault him while he was there. He certainly wasn’t mentally ill. He probably was put there because his family thought he might be depressed or he was using drugs. There’s a fine line sometimes between what society deems sanity and what society deems insanity.

OTOH, if all you’re asking for is a CT scan or an MRI for a loved one who is suffering, that’s a different story. My family’s experience was different: Cancer had spread to my father’s liver, which threw him into a terrible mental state one day. By the time he reached the ER, the nurses had to strap him down because he was fighting them. It didn’t matter that he didn’t want to be strapped down; it was obvious that something was wrong, and he needed help, whether he wanted the help or not at that point. (He did recover with no memory of what had happened, although he passed on a few weeks later.)

I agree that a few orderlies armed with the right medicine would be the better choice. Maybe these stories will prompt a return to that tactic.


75 posted on 12/05/2014 9:25:23 PM PST by Tired of Taxes
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To: cva66snipe

Sorry, I just read your post # 68 now with the additional information. I’m glad to hear of how you were able to find out what was really happening and make sure that your wife was given the right care. Hospitals and staff make mistakes sometimes. How fortunate are those of us with family to act as our advocates, as you did for your wife. God bless!


76 posted on 12/05/2014 9:32:24 PM PST by Tired of Taxes
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To: sport

She should have learned a lesson.

Sorry, I don’t get what you mean. Is that sarcasm? Yes, I’m sure the widow learned a lesson. That’s why she was at the task force meeting, to convey her hard-earned lesson: Don’t call the po-po in this area because they’ll kill you. Great lesson.


77 posted on 12/05/2014 10:03:40 PM PST by Hetty_Fauxvert (FUBO, and the useful idiots you rode in on!)
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To: Tired of Taxes
Yeah I know about Cancer. It took my dad a few years ago and between the Chemo, Morphine, Hydrocodone, and A-Fib, he wasn't rational many times. Because it was Cancer and even though he didn't have the mental clarity to do it I signed for his Home Hospice and along with Mom and my niece we did the Hospice care. In the immediate family I'm the most trained medically so I administered his meds. One which prevents the situation you speak of is a cream you apply to their wrist which is absorbed into the blood stream. You have to be careful with that stuff.

I've been under care of mental health professionals myself. I have been diagnosed with General Anxiety Disorder and had PTSD. The G.A.D. was a symptom of a neurological issue I was born with where the Inner Ears and Sensory Processing System for auditory and visual sensory processing is damaged.

The medical protocol for G.A.D. is antidepressants. That's fine and dandy if your issue is a need for it. For persons like me it simply overtaxed my already damaged system and would cause crashes. The doctors meaning Psychiatrist were insistent I take their antidepressant flavor of the month. Reality was only Xanax was helping me. They didn't want to give it too me because it is the Hollywood choice of drugs to take. I get no buzz, no utopia, no chill, from it rather I'm at least able to function enough to care for my wife and myself at home. I became disabled in 1994 at the old age of about 37.

I made the connection of the G.A.D. to my Inner Ear and vision issues thanks to a book I found linking Anxiety to Vestibular Disorders. Convincing a Shrink that this was the problem took several doctors before I found one who understood it and agreed to using the benzodiazepines rather than antidepressants.

What happened to my wife could have easily happened to me. Actually one doctor put me on Paxil. About two weeks into taking it my bladder stopped working. At first I thought well it's my nerves. Then I sensed I was fixing to go into Dysreflexia a condition of shock and got to an ER and got cathed. The condition is common to spinal cord patients is how I knew about it and what was happening to me. But it can happen to anyone. I had to keep a Foley in me until the medication left my body two weeks later. Not once was I warned the medication could cause that in men. Other drugs had bad results including about five more. Headaches and stomach aches when taking antidepressants is a sign hey the doctors needs to rethink things. Most are clueless. Many doctors writing scripts for antidepressants never heard of Serotonin Syndrome or hadn't 12 years ago anyway when it hit my wife.

The PTSD for me to be rid of it took five years of therapy. Two of it one on one and three in group. In period of a few years I lost my first wife to a massive heart attack when she was 23. I met someone else and we had just gotten serious and she went quadriplegic in a few hours time on a date. She nearly died as I was taking her to the ER with two scared kids in the car. She had a six month hospital stay three of that in spinal rehab. In the third month of it we married. Over the next few years she had several close calls health wise and our daughter was in a serious car wreck that when I arrived on scene thought she was dead because they were covering her body. She was pinned in the wreck and they had to cover her to cut her out. She was bed-fast at home for a couple of months.

A couple years later while still dealing with the legal hounding {other guys fault BTW} of debt collectors I was in a wreck where a woman rear ended my 78 K-5. Her Honda Accordion was totaled. In the front seat in a car seat was a baby. I got out to check for injuries and the baby I thought was dead but slept through the whole thing.

The sum total triggered the onset of the extreme sound sensitivities that trigger seizures in my upper Torso. My brain could only juggle so many things and something had to give. I never had to spend a day hospitalized for it. I was a threat to no one and had no desired to harm anybody.

After a couple of years when I finally got the Xanax in the correct consistent level in the bloodstream so I could function somewhat. IOW I needed my sensory system toned way down to a level my brain and Vestibular System could process without triggering anxiety. Most Shrinks still do not recognize Vestibular Disorders as a cause of Anxiety Disorder. Go tell most doctors that you take Xanax and are a regular user and they will tell you it won't work. For me it is the safest drug I can take.

Mental Health has a lot of catching up to do in recent research and so do the current laws on the books. Most persons with mental illness the cops interact with are chronic or repeat needs patients. For them there has to be a better way. Family should have enough legal standing to have someone in obvious need admitted involuntarily for 72 hours observation without it requiring an act of court or state. After that point the examination and opinion of two qualified doctors should suffice if needed to keep them there.

Appoint a patient advocate {Guardian Ad Liten} similar to what foster kids get to keep it honest but changes need to come so families are not at the mercy of LEO and the courts for getting someone help..

78 posted on 12/05/2014 10:35:37 PM PST by cva66snipe ((Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?))
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To: Hetty_Fauxvert

Your next question is what I meant. Unless you want a family member to get killed or go to jail, do not call the police. At one point in time, the police would when called mediate a dispute, exert a calming influence, offer counseling to a misbehaving child. Taking someone’s life or putting someone in jail was a last resort. However, this has went the way of the dodo bird. The function of the police is now to control and arrest. The police are no longer your friend. I taught my children that the police were their friend[s]. Do not be afraid of them. I would not do that in today’s climate.


79 posted on 12/06/2014 4:48:47 AM PST by sport
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To: Rockpile

So a mentally ill man, who was already having a problem, sees his house surrounded by a SWAT team with armor and air support and he gets scared and lashes out. Wow, who could have seen that coming.

I think even a healthy person under similar circumstances would have been scared to death.


80 posted on 12/06/2014 5:02:03 AM PST by Straight Vermonter (Posting from deep behind the Maple Curtain)
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