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To: DeoVindiceSicSemperTyrannis
DeoVindiceSicSemperTyrannis: "No there is a huge difference between micro and macro evolution.
Micro has been observed and is proven.
Macro is just a theory.
It has never been observed or proven and it is a plain and simple lie to say otherwise."

No, there is no difference, period.
It's precisely the same process, which when observed has been called "micro-evolution", and when inferred in longer time scales is sometimes called "macro-evolution".

But let me remind you again, that scientific terminology is intended to be precise in definitions.
So, a process which has been observed, and confirmed, is not called a "theory", but rather a "fact".
So, we are saying that since so-called "micro-evolution" has been observed, and confirmed, it is now classified as a fact, not theory.

By contrast, longer-term so-called "macro-evolution" cannot be observed directly, and so remains a "theory", however, it is theoretically precisely the same thing as the fact of "micro-evolution".
The theory simply says: if you continue "micro-evolution" for many millions of years, it can lead to separated populations evolving into new biological classifications we call species, genera or families, etc,

Physical evidence of "macro-evolution" can be seen in thousands of fossil species found, plus millions of living species' DNA analyzed.
They all, without exception, point to related species with common ancestors.

DeoVindiceSicSemperTyrannis: "It is not just that macro supposedly takes more time, it is also that macro claims to chance one species into another.
This process that you claim produces new species has NEVER been observed in nature."

But, first of all, that word you used, "species", is strictly, 100% a man-made scientific construct.
In and of itself, it means nothing specific, except "somewhat different from other species".
Indeed, I heard your man, Ken Ham refer to breeds of dogs as "species of dogs" -- so that word "species" is less that precise.
Precisely how different species are, is a matter of definitions and interpretations.

That's why the advent of DNA analyses in recent decades has created such turmoil in the biological classification system -- species which were once considered distantly related are now found, by matching their DNAs, to be much closer and visa versa.
So when, precisely should different "breeds" or "sub-species" be reclassified as separate "species"?
It's a matter of definitions, and definitions have recently been changing, a little.

One example I like, and have cited here before, is zebras -- since to casual human observation "all zebras look alike".
Well, they are not "all alike".
Amongst all zebras, there are about a dozen different "breeds" and "subspecies", which can readily interbreed, within three separate species which don't normally interbreed in the wild, and two separate genera which physically can't interbreed naturally.
And yet they are all considered "zebras", but they are not all the same.
Both fossil records and DNA analysis tell us those different zebra classifications all evolved within the past few million years.

Did we actually "see" it happen". No, of course not.
But the physical evidence is powerful enough that in other contexts, could convict a man of murder, or of being a child's father!

Yes, you are totally free to close your eyes and wave your hands claiming, "it doesn't exist".
But still, it does, FRiend.

DeoVindiceSicSemperTyrannis: "For real evolution to happen DNA would have to be gained.
But that is a problem because although it has been shown that parts of DNA can be lost or corrupted, it has never been shown to be gained."

In fact, new DNA instructions are found to have been gained, even in human beings, even in the past few thousands of years, of which a little thought produces several examples:

  1. skin color adapted to more or less winter sunlight.
  2. Very high mountain dwellers adapted for lower oxygen in the atmosphere.
  3. Sickle-cells developed to defeat malaria.
  4. Tolerance for milk in adults who keep dairy animals.
The list is longer, but those come to mind, and they prove beyond reasonable doubt that evolution never stops!

DeoVindiceSicSemperTyrannis: "Also your claim that the many theories on the origin of life all equally likely to have happened is absurd and unscientific."

And yet again we see the anti-scientist hoping to redefine what is, or is not, "scientific".
Sorry, pal, but when you take your stance against science, you lose all naming rights for what is, or is not, "scientific".

In this particular example, we are dealing with the fact of several different hypotheses proposed for the origins of life on earth, including abiogenesis, panspermia, alien space-ships and, of course, Divine Miracles.
Within the "abiogenesis" category are several different hypotheses, and my point here is: none of these various hypotheses has been either strongly confirmed or falsified.
They are all still "works in progress", and may or may not contribute to some final theory, if & when such a thing is ever confirmed.
That's why I say each is as likely, or unlikely as another to be true, or false.
As of today, nobody knows for sure.
So, in what way is that a problem for you?

DeoVindiceSicSemperTyrannis: "I'm not sure what you mean when you call Hoyle's calculation's ludicrous.
You yourself say that if life spontaneously arose it would be in the form of the most simple of organisms.
But that is just what Hoyle calculated for.
His calculations were based on a single celled organism, You can't get any simpler than that."

Oh, but certainly you can!
We can begin with the fact that even today there are "critters" which straddle the border between "living" and "chemistry", most notably viruses, but also including the prion said to cause Mad Cow Disease.
These are not, in themselves, alive, but require a living host to function.
However, they are still vastly, orders of magnitude, more complex than would be the first complicated chemistry we could remotely classify as "life".

And that complex chemistry is precisely what scientists today hope to demonstrate, someday, maybe, with luck...
Such chemistry needs three basics -- 1) a membrane to keep out what it doesn't want, and keep itself in, 2)some kind of ability to absorb energy (aka "eat"), and 3) reproduction.
Such complex chemistry was orders of magnitude less complex than today's simplest cells, therefore making Hoyle's old calculations ludicrous.
But as long as it continued to reproduce imperfectly, then evolution would operate to steadily increase its complexity, eventually becoming something we can classify as "living".

Anyway, that's one abiogenist hypothesis.

DeoVindiceSicSemperTyrannis: "Also if evolution were really true, then one would expect to find thousands and thousands of transitional forms in the fossil layer.
Do we find this? No."

The truth of this matter is that no fossil has ever been found which was not "transitional", between its ancestors and descendants, if any.
Every fossil, and every DNA analyzed, fits somewhere on the great "tree of life", pointing back to common ancestors.
Yes, some fossils are more obviously "transitional" than others, but all show numerous similarities to their more closely related ancestors and descendants.
Thus, despite the estimate of only 1% of all species which ever lived having recovered fossils, many of today's species can be traced back many millions of years through their fossils.
And of course, of all the "transitional forms" ever found, none are more striking than these:

DeoVindiceSicSemperTyrannis: "I said before the who theory of evolution goes against the Second Law of Thermodynamics, which makes it highly questionable."

But of course, it does no such thing, because the earth has continuously received new energy input from the sun.
That makes your whole thermodynamics argument moot & void, and surely somebody has long since pointed this out to you?
So why do you keep making it?

248 posted on 11/20/2014 7:55:46 AM PST by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective..)
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To: BroJoeK
You keep trying to equate them but they are radically different. Why? Microevolution makes for a more specialized species using DNA that the organism already has. Sometimes in Microevolution DNA is actually lost. Macroevolution assumes that DNA is somehow magically GAINED. And not only is it gained, the DNA gains must be positive. So far all DNA corruption we have ever seen have been negative. Big difference. One is scientific fact, the other is theory. Your claim that there have been positive gains in DNA are ridiculous. The high altitude one you mentioned isn't a DNA gain, it is situational. Anyone who lives in such climate their body adjusts to it. Same for the milk one. The body is a great adjuster. But it didn't have to mutate to adjust. For instance, if you were born and raised in Alaska you will have a higher tolerance to cold, whereas if you born and raised in Florida and then moved to Alaska, you may find yourself shivering all the time. Not a DNA issue, just a born and raised situational one. The sickle cell anemia one is not positive as you represent it. It often causes the person effected with it to die younger unless treated. great positive mutation there.

You keep claiming there are thousands of examples of missing links. The problem with many of them is that they are based on fragments too small to really determine anything. For instance take Nebraska Man, which was supposed to be an intermediate form between apes and man. Scientists built this whole assumption based on a single tooth that they found among some tools. The pictures they made of it all looked very convincing. However, it later turned out to be the tooth of a pig. These so-called evolutionary proofs keep on getting debunked based on further information. Also, a lot of these finds assume that there is one shape for the human skull and all human skulls found have to be that shape. Sorry but it's not that way. There is great genetic diversity among people, and you can find plenty of people today with slightly different shaped heads. Also, some groups of people throughout the ages have done things to change the shape of their heads. Yet they are still human. Take a look at these. The first is a woman from a trive in Africa that does head shaping, the middle one an African ambassador, Tutankhamen, and the last is an aborigine (note the heavy eyebrow ridge):

When looking at that list of skulls you have, they are all either men, or apes of various kinds (some of them extinct). If their diet was poor, their bones may be a bit deformed. This is what scientists believe is the case with the so-called Neanderthal man. The famous anatomist, Dr. Rudolph Virchow, upon looking at the Neanderthal bones found that the specimen had was simply an old person with a bad case of rickets (lack of vitamin D) and also arthritis. Homo heidelbergensis is also obviously human. The Australopithecus is acknowledged by many scientists to have simply been a chimpanzee. Matter of fact, in the case. of the Lucy skeleton, the scientist actually broke apart the pelvis, which was said to have looked too much like a primate's and then reglued it back together in a more human looking shape. It is circular reasoning to use assumptions of human evolution for the reconstruction and then using it as evidence for evolution. Dr. David Raup, curator of the Chicago Field Museum of Natural History (an expert on the fossil record) says:
"Well, we are now about 120 years after Darwin, and knowledge of the fossil record has been greatly expanded...ironically, we have even fewer examples of evolutionary transition than we had in Darwin's time. By this I mean that some of the classic cases of Darwinian change in the fossil record, such as the evolution of the horse in North America, have had to be discarded or modified as the result of more detailed information."

Also, to let you know, just because two organisms have "similar" looking DNA (i.e. they have large chunks of their amino acid protein sequences that are similar) that does not mean they are closely related to each other or one came before or after the other. It is the parts that differ and not the parts that are similar that matter. For instance, a rhodospirillum rubrum bacterium shares more of its DNA with a horse than with a yeast. A lamprey eel has only a 15% difference in DNA with a horse. and there is only an 8% difference between the DNA of a pigeon and a turtle. Nobody is going to make the argument that those are closely related.

Another thing. If evolution was real, then you would expect to find the less evolved specimens in the lower rock layers and the more evolved ones in the higher layers. So why then do we find numerous examples of the supposedly less evolved specimens and the supposed missing links on layers higher than the specimens that supposedly came after them? Also, why do you find a specimen and its supposed ancestor in the same layer? Also, why are these charts (like the one you posted) purporting to show an evolutionary sequence take specimens of various different ages, that were found on various different continents, and on various different layers (often with the human ones in layers lower than the "missing links", and put them in line as if one was supposedly the ancestor of the others? This is ridiculous bs and is entirely unscientific.

256 posted on 11/20/2014 6:13:08 PM PST by DeoVindiceSicSemperTyrannis
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To: BroJoeK
Another thing. Another problem is how could partially-evolved plant and animal species survive over millions of years when their basic organs and tissues were still in the process of evolving? How, for example, were animals breathing, eating, and reproducing if there respiratory, digestive, and reproductive organs were still evolving?

Also, about the second law of thermodynamics.

I don't see what the sun has to do with it. The law simply says that energy once received always dissipates. Everything tends towards disorder rather than order. This flies in the face of Darwinian evolution, which teaches that things grow more ordered and advanced over time. I'm not sure why you keep saying this is a moot point. Maybe because you have no real good way of addressing it?

257 posted on 11/20/2014 6:19:04 PM PST by DeoVindiceSicSemperTyrannis
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