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Why I'm not a Libertarian
vanity | 08/04/2014 | chuckles

Posted on 08/04/2014 5:37:03 PM PDT by chuckles

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To: DManA

So far you have said zero to me in regard to the facts I posted, you haven’t said anything at all about them.

The laws and policies of the federal government have a huge role, for instance abortion and gay marriage, and homosexual policy in regards to the military, federal employment and immigration, etc.

Never support a social liberal, non God fearing candidate at ANY level of office, because not only will he be pushing left wing social politics, but he might someday reach the Congress, or Senate, or Presidency and be making federal policy.


81 posted on 08/04/2014 8:27:06 PM PDT by ansel12 (LEGAL immigrants, 30 million 1980-2012, continues to remake the nation's electorate for democrats)
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To: GeronL

Also with Romney, part of the purpose of Romney was to help blend the rinos and libertarians in their fight against conservatism.


82 posted on 08/04/2014 8:28:35 PM PDT by ansel12 (LEGAL immigrants, 30 million 1980-2012, continues to remake the nation's electorate for democrats)
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To: chuckles

You realize there are multiple levels of government don’t you?

1. So which government entity are you talking about vis-a-vis dope laws?

2. Unless there this a spending cut there is no tax cut.

3. Are you nuts? What does tax policy have to do with drug laws?


83 posted on 08/04/2014 8:29:34 PM PDT by DManA
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To: OneWingedShark
By asserting that these problems are federal in nature you are asserting that the servant [fedgov] is greate than the master [the states/people].

Well, let's turn that statement on it's head for a second.

If that be the case, then shouldn't the 2nd Amendment also be left to the States?

How about the First Amendment?

Since the equal protection clause will be used to support Gay Marriage contracts in the states that have outlawed the practice constitutionally at the state level, does it not cry out for a federal constitutional amendment remedy?
84 posted on 08/04/2014 8:29:40 PM PDT by SoConPubbie (Mitt and Obama: They're the same poison, just a different potency)
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To: ansel12
At the federal level, marriage issues […] for instance in the military, federal employment

Not really; they could adopt a no benefits policy; or a benefit to one designated survivor for 20-years policy.

and abortion also have to be decided on,

It was already decided federally: Roe v. Wade.

and immigration and foreign policy.

This is about the only one that actually is justified under the Constitution; congress has the authority to make a uniform law for immigration.

85 posted on 08/04/2014 8:31:02 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: GeronL
We could announce our support for reducing the federal government size and cost by 95% but if we want controls on immigration, drugs, abortion and gay marriage we are “big government” socialists.

By supporting drug control you are accepting Wickard v. Filburn as correct, as well as expansions thereof such as Raich, and therefore are at least endorsing tyrannical authoritarianism if not fully a big government type. (But it is natural that such a authoritarian government will expand and so you are functionally a big-government type.)

86 posted on 08/04/2014 8:35:19 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: SoConPubbie

Government power has given us legal abortion and even pays for it. So your solution is more government power. You are a fool.


87 posted on 08/04/2014 8:35:32 PM PDT by DManA
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To: chuckles
If you had to choose one or the other, would you choose legal dope or a 2% tax cut?

But the premise is flawed — dope is already legal, or more accurately the federal government does not have the legitimate authority to illegalize it. Even taking precedence *spit* the 18th Amendment had to be passed to give the federal government the authority to regulate alcohol; no such amendment exists with respect to drugs.

88 posted on 08/04/2014 8:38:30 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: OneWingedShark

I’m not here to play fantasy with you and all the things you can imagine, we are dealing with a reality right now, and your politics are in opposition to rolling back the left’s and libertarian gains.

There was federal policy on abortion before Roe v Wade, and federal abortions being performed, and we have federal laws and policies supporting abortion right now just as we have alterations to federal marriage law that was written at the time of the constitution and even before it by the Continental congress, we conservatives oppose them and want to stop them, and you oppose us and our fight.


89 posted on 08/04/2014 8:40:25 PM PDT by ansel12 (LEGAL immigrants, 30 million 1980-2012, continues to remake the nation's electorate for democrats)
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To: SoConPubbie; ansel12
No, not at all.
However, God established via the Law in the Old Testament what type of laws a righteous nation should have.
Jesus, in the New Testament stated he had not come to do away with the law, but far from it, he came to establish the law in Men's hearts.
At no place does it state in the New Testament that there are to be no laws supporting the morality of the Bible.
That is primarily a Libertarian construct, not a Christian construct.

And I'm not saying that; what I am saying is that if your concern is rampant immorality then the answer is not the law, but Jesus.
I've had this discussion w/ Ansel12 several times, but he refuses to see the point insisting that the answer is more law… and law at the federal level.

90 posted on 08/04/2014 8:41:23 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: DManA

How do you figure government power created abortion?

Do you think free market forces are what prevents it?

Abortion is either legal or illegal.


91 posted on 08/04/2014 8:44:29 PM PDT by ansel12 (LEGAL immigrants, 30 million 1980-2012, continues to remake the nation's electorate for democrats)
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To: SoConPubbie
Primarily, however, like I posted previously on this thread, anyone doubting that the Founders would have included Amendments to the Federal constitution outlawing Gay Marriage and Abortion if they knew that their Progeny would be supporting the murder of children and buggery and Gay Marriage, really doesn't know or understand the Founders and their firm Commitment to God.

That's quite probable; however, we don't have a living Constitution that means whatever we want it to say — this is to say that we must respect the limits imposed by Constitution even, especially, when it hinders our own desires.

Most of these problems still aren't properly addressed in law; but in the lives of Christians.
As an example: do you think we would have half the problems [divorce, infidelity, homosexual-marriage, etc] if those that said that they were Christians treated marriage like something special/sacred in their own lives? Even if that is flawed and would have little impact on those numbers, do you think that such a moral stance would be a hindrance or a help in life WRT witnessing? (A single candle is more appreciated at midnight than in the noonday sun.)

92 posted on 08/04/2014 8:48:08 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: OneWingedShark
I've had this discussion w/ Ansel12 several times, but he refuses to see the point insisting that the answer is more law… and law at the federal level.

No we haven't had that discussion many times, but as far as abortion and gay marriage etc. at the federal level, you oppose rolling back the recent federal laws on those, and changing to pro-life pro-marriage policies for the feds.

There is no state that tells the feds about marriage and abortion policy within it's own areas.

And never, never, never support a politician at any level, who fights like you do to protect social liberalism, no matter what level of office he is running for.

93 posted on 08/04/2014 8:49:07 PM PDT by ansel12 (LEGAL immigrants, 30 million 1980-2012, continues to remake the nation's electorate for democrats)
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To: chuckles
Nowadays, nearly everyone I know is pro-government (when it comes to benefits they receive) and anti-tax (when it comes to taxes that they have to pay). Politicians have learned to promise that they will protect your benefits and that you won't have to pay for it.

Now, lately it has become fashionable to promise to reduce government spending. So, the trick is to promise to reduce government spending in as general a way as possible without ever being specific enough to make any voter feel that his benefits are threatened because, again, the vast majority of voters do not want to cut any of the programs that benefit them or programs that they like.

There aren't many low-income food stamp mothers who want to cut food stamps. There aren't many unemployed folks who want to cut unemployment benefits. There aren't many Tea Party seniors who want to cut senior benefits.

People are people and politicians are politicians. It's no mystery why we are where we are.

94 posted on 08/04/2014 8:50:47 PM PDT by Tau Food (Never give a sword to a man who can't dance.)
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To: OneWingedShark; SoConPubbie
That's quite probable; however, we don't have a living Constitution that means whatever we want it to say — this is to say that we must respect the limits imposed by Constitution even, especially, when it hinders our own desires.

There is nothing in the constitution that is forcing you to support abortion and gay marriage and homosexuality at the federal level, that is your own passionate politics.

You are fighting for the recent status quo of the left and libertarian gains at the federal level, and fighting us who want regain the lost ground against such things at the federal level.

Remember that the Congress was passing laws regarding marriage in federal employment in 1780, 1794, and 1798, and 1802.

95 posted on 08/04/2014 8:59:56 PM PDT by ansel12 (LEGAL immigrants, 30 million 1980-2012, continues to remake the nation's electorate for democrats)
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To: coloradan
AHH, but you are wrong, grasshopper. He is libertarian on almost his entire approach,....except economics. Many libertarians are libertarians for the economics of it. Many young libertarians are there just for legal dope. The typical libertarian is in Denver Colorado partying right now. They want legal sodomy and legal abortion also. Many want the border removed completely. I've talked with them and you would swear they would be Dems, but then the big "L" word comes out. Stossel is grooming them as we speak. They believe they are intellectuals and superior to others. They have almost no practical experience with their theory. In 5 years, if we are still here, dope will be put back in jail or America will be 3rd world. Baby killing has brought elderly murder and the disabled. Well, now we have ObamaCare deciding who get saved and who dies. Choosing to kill people is not libertarian, even though they want to protect the woman from government control. Natural Law says people are people. The baby is "people", just as the elderly Alzheimer patient is. It comes from a moral code as old as the planet and they are't happy with it. Just as the Bible says a man that won't work to support his family is worse than an infidel, laws on murder and sodomy come from God, along with the rights God gives all of us. Without God, we are all at the mercy of men that change rights with the wind change.

The thing that takes discernment is Obama's social idea's are exactly libertarian, but his economics are straight out of Marx. Ergo, people say he's a socialist/Marxist. All the economic libertarianism in the world, can't save a country that murders people in the name of freedom, or economics. If we are forced to keep ObamaCare, you will soon see it going broke and to conserve money, we will start withholding treatments and drugs to certain people that don't "deserve" the largess from the "real" needy people. Social libertarianism is the same thinking of economic liberalism. Economic theory from Milton Freedman and social theory from the Bible is what works. Social libertarianism will break down and require laws to regulate it,...it's inevitable. All the trans- bathrooms for children at school, Heather has 2 mommies, now they want multiple wives, children have 3 parents, and on and on, it's all from "What do you care as long as it doesn't affect you". Man's heart is continually evil, who can know it. Eventually, it will affect you.

Some libertarians invoke the Founders, as if they believe the Founders were on their side. The foundation of the country was on individual freedom and freedom to worship God. Atheists weren't elected or revered much in those days. The laws were ALL based on Scripture. The founders wanted people left alone until they sinned against God and nature. None were libertarian to my knowledge.

96 posted on 08/04/2014 9:00:04 PM PDT by chuckles
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To: SoConPubbie
>> By asserting that these problems are federal in nature you are asserting that the servant [fedgov] is greate than the master [the states/people].
>
> Well, let's turn that statement on it's head for a second.

Great!
This'll be fun.

If that be the case, then shouldn't the 2nd Amendment also be left to the States?

Traditionally the Bill of Rights applied only to the Federal government [read its prolog] — however, the construction of the Second is in the passive voice where the action being prohibited is the subject and therefore the actor is irrelevant. By the reading of the 10th Amendment infringing on the right to bear arms is thereby prohibited by it to the States.

Another interesting fact is that the Bill of Rights amends the Constitution as further declaratory and restrictive clauses — this means that the power of Congress is limited thereby and, logically, there can be no legitimate weapons/munitions tax.

How about the First Amendment?

The First amendment explicitly limits Congress.
None of the several states have a Congress, but rather a legislature, assembly or somesuch as the legislative-branch; the application of the first amendments ought, therefore, to be a nullity — by accepting that the 14th Amendment makes the First amendment applicable to the States is to assert that there is some magic in incorporation which alters the text to suit whims.

Since the equal protection clause will be used to support Gay Marriage contracts in the states that have outlawed the practice constitutionally at the state level, does it not cry out for a federal constitutional amendment remedy?

Interestingly the Fourteenth amendment isn't valid [alt doc]; but let's assume for a moment that it is — how would allowing States to define marriage themselves be denying equal protection? If the definition is applied uniformly then there is no error; only when exceptions are made does the protection become unequal.

97 posted on 08/04/2014 9:02:32 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: SoConPubbie

Libertarians know that gay marriage at the federal level guarantees that they will get their gay marriage at the state level in time.

We were not going have a situation where Marines and Sailors and FBI men and millions of federal employees and immigrants were going to have to deal with being “family”, or “not family” during their careers of transfers and duty stations for very long, and libertarians know that.


98 posted on 08/04/2014 9:05:53 PM PDT by ansel12 (LEGAL immigrants, 30 million 1980-2012, continues to remake the nation's electorate for democrats)
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To: ansel12
There is nothing in the constitution that is forcing you to support abortion and gay marriage and homosexuality at the federal level, that is your own passionate politics.

I'm not supporting abortion or homosexual marriage at the federal level — you are a fool if that's what you think, as what I said federal government has no authority there is not equivalent to the federal government should support them.

99 posted on 08/04/2014 9:07:01 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: ansel12
0Libertarians know that gay marriage at the federal level guarantees that they will get their gay marriage at the state level in time.

Like that's not happening now?
You must not have been paying attention when Prop 8 hit the USSC and they dismissed it as the people of California have no standing despite that the State's own Supreme Court had certified their standing. So, in essence the USSC said that the people have no interest in seeing their own state's Constitution upheld and that the federal judges declaring he amendment unconstitutional was right.

100 posted on 08/04/2014 9:11:56 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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