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To: varmintman; Swordmaker; Alamo-Girl
varmintman: "Calculations bearing on size and power suggested that the maximum weight that a flying vertebrate can attain is about 50 lb."

I'll say it again: the limit on flying bird-weight is simply the size of its wings, and that is roughly the calculation of 5 pounds per square foot of wing.
So, if a large Kori Bustard weighed 45 pounds and has a nine-foot wing-span, how wide do those wings have to be?
Answer: to lift 45 pounds you need nine square feet of wing (45 divided by 5 pounds per square foot).
Since Kori Bustard's wings are nine feet long, they need be only one foot wide -- as clearly they are:

varmintman: "The square/cube problem has done the same thing for the bustard, which can fly with difficulty for short distances, but that's it, i.e. it would be a mistake to call a bustard a flying bird."

But the fact that bustards don't fly much is a reflection of their life-styles, not some physical "law" which prevents them from it.
If these birds seriously needed to fly more, then somewhat longer, wider wings would accomplish that, as we can see in the case of ancient Argentavis, with max 26 foot wings lifting it's 176 lbs.
Those 26 foot wings needed to be less than 1.5 feet wide to provide the necessary 35 square feet of wing-lift.

The same calculation works for Quetzalcoatlus' 52 foot wing-span lifting perhaps 550 pounds -- for flight, those wings needed to be only two feet wide, which clearly they were far more.

varmintman: "The argument that bustards prove that a teratorn or a Texas pterosaur could fly in our world is idiotic."

Kori bustards, Albatross and Condors all prove that wing-loads less than 5 lbs. per square foot will get a large bird air-born.
All of the estimates for large extinct birds & pterosaurs also fall within that range.

varmintman: "The calculations Desmond mentions were perfectly good."

Such calculations are laughable, and the resulting conclusions ludicrous.

253 posted on 03/02/2014 12:23:05 PM PST by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective....)
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To: BroJoeK
I'll say it again: the limit on flying bird-weight is simply the size of its wings...

The fact that you're saying this stupid *** again indicates that you are basically ineducable.

254 posted on 03/02/2014 3:11:21 PM PST by varmintman
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To: BroJoeK
I'll say it again: the limit on flying bird-weight is simply the size of its wings, and that is roughly the calculation of 5 pounds per square foot of wing.

No, that is UNTRUE. The muscular structure required to support and MOVE those wings is also a requirement you repeatedly ignore. That is what the cube/square law is about. Yes, you can increase the size of the wing, but then it WON'T BE THE SAME STRUCTURE AS A MODERN EAGLE! The shape of the bird would be different. As one increases the sail area, the muscle size must increase by the cube of the square area of the wing. The teratorn fossil structure was essentially a scaled up eagle without oversized wings. You can theorize oversized wings all you want but they weren't there and neither were the muscles. Nor were the muscles in the dinosaurs capable of swinging or lifting a cantilevered neck using bone and sinew as the structural materials. . . the engineering math simply doesn't work. The weight go the a teratorn keeps getting lighter and lighter as the need to make it lighter gets more and more, just as the paleontologist keep putting their dinosaurs on diets, trying to get them lighter too. Why? Because of the problems of bio-engineering.

256 posted on 03/02/2014 11:57:16 PM PST by Swordmaker (This tag line is a Microsoft insult free zone... but if the insults to Mac users continue...)
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