Posted on 11/06/2012 10:33:47 PM PST by LifeComesFirst
It's too late for "taking this country back," it's too far gone. There is too large a segment of the population that wants to live under a large welfare state with minimal civil liberties and free abortions for all. We had the Tea Party and it hasn't done a lick of good. That's because it was trying to work within our existing, utterly broken system.
Think about these points:
--the country has been on a very un-Constitutional path since at least the New Deal --rule of law continues to erode as Obama uses executive orders and openly selectively enforces the law, and will nullify private contracts at will in order to benefit his special interests (Chrysler) --we cannot fly around our own country without being groped by petty civil "servants" --for the first time, the federal government has the power to place any mandate on us that it wants to, as Justice John Roberts has ruled that the power to tax is all-encompassing, so conceivably they could "tax" whatever behavior they want to stamp out and this will pass muster --our court system will only get worse as Obama will put farther left justices in courts --big business is aligned with government to an extent never seen, as corporations try to win subsidies or favorable regulations rather than trying to please customers --our very energy sources are being controlled by the government, limiting drilling, pipelines, etc. --huge segments of the population think of welfare and illegitimacy as ways of life, there are whole neighborhoods where self-reliance and education is secondary to handouts --whole segments of the economy are artificially propped up by the government, creating the illusion that bad economics times will follow if the government cuts its budget --entitlement spending is on track to bankrupt the whole western world --we have a country where half the population looks at record welfare, record food stamps, endless unemployment and stagnation, and says "more please" --even with a supermajority in both houses and control of the White House, no political party has the power to enact large scale changes. Even ObamaCare, which was supposed to be universal healthcare, was instead watered down into some Frankenstein's monster of special-interest-pleasing mandates and regulations. --Even if Romney had won, it would be politically impossible for him to do what would be necessary: major spending cuts and a large contraction of the welfare state, and slash-and-burn shrinking of the federal government. At best, we would have marginally lower taxes but still have trillions in debt and spending.
There are two reasons why all of these problems are intractable in this country: 1) half the country has a rotten culture which values government as savior 2) these flawed policies are baked in to the system. No amount of Tea Party protests and electing the right people will change anything. We have tried that, tried our darnedest, and it didn't work.
Complaining about "oh we just need more conservative candidates" isn't the answer either. Half the country wouldn't vote for a "true conservative" and if a "true conservative" became president, he or she would be very limited in what they could do. Reagan couldn't even cut the National Endowment for the Arts, for crying out loud.
Half the country wants a European welfare state, half the country wants limited government and economic freedom. I say both sides deserve the government they want to live under.
I think it is a basic human right to live under a government that governs with the consent of the governed. I think this basic human right transcends whatever the law may say (Scalia says there is no Constitutional right to secede). The Civil War experience we had in this country has forever colored our concept of secession. We automatically think of it as a violent, tragic enterprise. But this is a narrow viewpoint. There was a Civil War because one side wanted to secede and the other side wanted to remain intact.
But in a situation where both (or more) sides are willing to secede, you can have a peaceful split. Czechoslovakia becoming the Czech Republic and Slovakia, for example.
The historical trend has been for small countries to merge into big countries, but there is no a priori reason to assume that this is always inevitable or always desirable.
2014 won't save us. 2016 won't save us. Getting a new person in the White House isn't the answer, that only buys time, it doesn't fix the problem.
It's time for people, not just right-wingers but it should start with them, to start floating the idea of a peaceful break-up of the United States of America. Getting bogged down into how it will work or whatever isn't the first step, the first step is to overcome the taboo of talking about it. Right now, even among many right-wingers, it is tinfoil hat talk to mention the s-word. That needs to change. This would be a much happier continent in a post-secession America.
Look, your smart answer is unfair...many of us would leave if we could...many of us find ourselves in positions where it is not possible so don’t sit in judgement of those of us who do not support the liberal crap.
My apologies. I agree, it was not fair.
You know that both parties are about to collapse when their main election strategies are too pretend they are something they are not.
Actually, we aired this all out before. The general consensus was to wait and give the RINO's one last chance. The chance has come and gone. My best guess, is they really thought Romney would win. They did not accurately predict the dissatisfaction that conservatives would have with Romney. So now we enter the brave future world were a possible WWIII scenario can break out any day now, with a President who leaves Americans in harms way to cover his criminal activities.
Articles of Impeachment Against Barack Obama
First Count - Leaving over 2 dozen American in Harms Way while our Mission was under attack by the terrorist organization known as Al Qeada.
Second Count - Supplying the Mexican Drug Cartels with military grade weapons under the guise of a fake gun sting.
Third Count - Aiding and Abetting extreme terrorist organizations in Libya, Egypt and Syria with funding and weapons.
Fourth Count - Attacking Pakistani civilians with missiles fired from drones.
Fifth Count - Maintaining a Hit List that includes American citizens.
Sixth Count - ?
If the nation of the United States of America is to continue forward, we must prosecute these crimes to make sure no other future President ever commits such despicable acts of violence.
Count me in.
Yesterday I was walking in downtown Montgomery, Alabama and walked right past the “First White House of the Confederacy”, where Jeff Davis lived for a few months until they moved the capital to Richmond.
I stopped and looked at the building in the cool Fall air and wondered what would have happened had slavery not existed and instead it was just about Southern people ensuring their freedom. Tragic how it all turned out.
Perhaps we can make it right this time.
Our political class is whistling past the graveyard.
I saw an article the other day...I should post it, talking about how the election did not matter. While I didn’t agree on that broad theme, his point was that the total amount of “mandatory” Federal expenditures already written into law such as social security, medicare, pensions, etc. plus interest on the national debt already exceeded total Federal revenues. So if every dime of discretionary spending, including the military, were cut, we still couldn’t balance the budget. On the other hand, taxes as a percentage of GDP have always been in a fairly tight band. You can raise rates but not raise a lot of revenue (i.e. the Laffer curve).
Bluntly put, they can’t raise taxes enough to cover the deficit, they can’t cut discretionary spending enough to cover the deficit, and they’re unwilling to cut “mandatory” expenditures as it’s viewed as political suicide. The only thing left is to monetize the debt. And that only works for so long before you destroy your currency.
Not good. Not good at all.
“Unless you can expel the “takers” there is no point.”
No need to expel them, just don’t give them anything. Make them work or starve to death.
Correct. We are in the debt quicksand. No way out, and no one on this planet has the strength to pull the entire country out of that debt trap. What we must do is splinter and let the productive regions go their own way. That would be fair and righteous because the productive regions did not deserve this and they did not cause this.
You redstaters might be surprised to learn that the idea looks pretty appealing from up here, too.
I’ve read the venting and the name-calling, and it’s understandable. But I know some southerners...they are remarkably bright & friendly people, and I am still struck by how naturally polite they are.
At the end of the day, we DON’T hate each other. We do, however, feel constrained by one another.
I’m a northern liberal. I want universal health care, govt run schools from K through college, high speed rail, more basic research, public broadcasting, and handgun control (at least in the cities...guns aren’t a problem in the country). But I can’t have this stuff because of the %@#^*-ing SOUTH!
From what I understand, what you want is strong churches, small govt, low taxes, light regulation. And when the blue states demand a larger natl govt for ourselves, of course it gets imposed on the red states, too.
Hard to believe, but we’re both right.
If we have an amicable split, we will each get busy developing our social systems to fit our philosophies. We will trade enormously with each other. Our Olympic teams will train together and compete with each other. The Cowboys will play in Green Bay, and bitch about the cold. The Buckeyes will play in the Sugar Bowl, and get beat again.
We will each be convinced that the other’s governing priorities will lead them to eventual collapse. And we will both be wrong. All the while, our experiment will be a model for realignment around the world.
Just thinking a little more about it, I figure after the South breaks off, the North will join with Canada and become the next superpower.
You know, if it weren’t for Fort Sumter, this whole thing could have started 150 years ago. Farm machinery would have ended slavery by 1900 anyway, and those 600,000 good men we lost in the civil war could have built a continent even better than we have now.
Hey, Dixie: Let’s talk.
Welcome to FR. Unfortunately, I don’t think your presence here will be long lived, but I appreciate your willingness to discuss this topic amicably if not graciously. FYI, I’m not a secessionist, but I do think the time for some serious discussion of the idea has come. Even if simply to discard it as a bad idea at the end.
I’m not at all surprised that there are leftist northerners who are thinking about divorce. If anything, I’m surprised that they aren’t bringing it up more frequently. It would seem to make sense from their perspective as well. Any divorce strategy would have to get some measure of support from the leftist north in order to be successful. No one that I know is interested in a repeat of the great unpleasantness of the 1860’s. However many see it as increasingly possible if not likely.
FWIW I don’t think “hate” is too strong of a word. Most of us including myself have a lot invested in this nation. Have fought for it in the military, have lost children in it’s wars, have prayed for it, honored it’s flag, and see that which we love disappearing before our eyes. We aren’t going to have a group hug with those whom we believe responsible.
A follow on remark. I was able to join FR as an open and notorious Democrat 8+ years ago. Although I’m no longer a Democrat and I’ve always been a conservative. But the Democrat part of that was barely tolerated. I’m not sure you’ll be tolerated as an open and notorious liberal. I think you probably won’t be.
My advice is to be honest about what you are with every post (use the tagline if necessary), be exceptionally polite, and be ready to reap a hefty amount of guff. Also, do an “about” page. Nothing says you don’t plan on being here for long like not doing one.
Good luck.
man it must suck to be you.
Why do Ohioans need the federal government to “implement universal health care, govt run schools from K through college, high speed rail, more basic research, public broadcasting, and handgun control” for them?
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