Posted on 08/27/2012 7:16:44 PM PDT by Perdogg
@BarackObama is petrified of the birther issue so they go on the offensive to try & make the Republicans feel guilty & stupid. Watch what's coming!
(Excerpt) Read more at twitlonger.com ...
First, I can tell you that it is very risky to attempt to make a firm conclusion as to what a particular foreign law is or how it is applied based on a document such as this without consulting knowledgeable foreign counsel. And I don’t mean that as just a perfunctory cya statement. Aside from the obvious problem of whether we have an accurate English translation, we would need to know whether this is the proper law during the relevant times, whether other statutory provisions are also relevant, whether there are administrative regulations that would affect the interpretation and whether there is an interpretive gloss that would affect a proper understanding of the statute or any regulations. And especially in lesser developed countries, it may well be the case that the attitude of government officials toward these cases is more important than the words on the page of the statute or regulations. (In the US we are moving beyond banana republic status in laws such as Obamacare and Dodd-Frank where we give nearly complete discretion to government officials to both decide what the law is and to apply it.)
Anyway, having said that, the following discussion assumes that the statute we are looking is indeed the relevant law at the relevant time and the only law we need to look at, and that the English translation is a correct enough understanding of the law. (One cannot escape that the quality of the English translation is not high.)
Let’s look at Stanley Ann’s situation under Article 7:
Article 7.
(1) A foreign woman married to a citizen of the Republic of Indonesia, acquires the citizenship of the Republic of Indonesia, if and when she makes a statement as to that effect within 1 year after contracting said marriage, except in case when she acquires the citizenship of the Republic of Indonesia she possesses still another nationality, in which case the statement may not be made.
(2) With the exception as mentioned in para 1 the foreign woman who marries a citizen of the Republic of Indonesia also acquires the citizenship of the Republic of Indonesia one year after the marriage has been contracted, if within that one year her husband does not make a statement as to release his citizenship of the Republic of Indonesia. Said statement may only be made and only results in the loss of the citizenship of the Republic of Indonesia if by such a loss the husband does not become stateless.
(3) If one of the statements mentioned in para 1 and 2 have been made, the alternative statement may not be made.
(4) The statements mentioned above shall be made to the Pengadilan Negeri or the Representation of the Republic of Indonesia at the residence of the person making such a statement.
Looking first at paragraph (1): The provision allows a foreign woman who marries an Indonesian man to become an Indonesian citizen by making a statement before the local court or embassy/consulate within a year – except that it is NOT available to a women who would continue to be the citizen of another country after acquiring Indonesian citizenship. So we see here at work the strict policy of Indonesia against dual citizenship.
I don’t know for certain, but I am skeptical that Stanley Ann would have made such a statement. By doing so, that is by voluntarily applying for Indonesian citizenship where it is clear that she could not continue to be a US citizen, she would have lost her US citizenship. Now maybe she thought she could do this but keep it quiet. But I doubt that in her case she would have felt it worth the risk.
Looking at paragraph (2), we see that a foreign woman who marries an Indonesian man automatically becomes an Indonesian citizen UNLESS the husband gives up his own Indonesian citizenship. But wait – the paragraph starts off with the words “with the exception as mentioned in para 1.” What is this exception? It is the exception that says “except in case when she acquires the citizenship of the Republic of Indonesia she possesses still another nationality.” This exception WOULD apply to Stanley Ann – she has not HERSELF made any voluntary application for Indonesian citizenship, so she would not lose her US citizenship. Here again, we see at work at work the strict policy of Indonesia against dual citizenship: Stanley Ann could not have become an Indonesian citizen under this paragraph (2) because she would have fallen within the exception – Indonesia would not have permitted her to become an Indonesian citizen without giving up her US citizenship.
So to summarize Stanley Ann’s situation, to my mind she very likely did NOT become an Indonesian citizen because (a) I think it unlikely she would have risked losing her US citizenship by making use of paragraph (1) and (b) the provisions of paragraph (2) would not have applied to her because of the exception language.
Looking now at little Barry’s situation under Article 2:
Article 2
(1) A foreign child of less than 5 years age who is adopted by a citizen of the Republic of Indonesia acquires the citizenship of the Republic of Indonesia, if such an adoption is declared legal by the Pengadilan Negeri at the residence of the person adopting the child.
(2) Said declaration of legality by the Pengadilan Negeri shall be requested by the person adopting the child within 1 year after such an adoption or within 1 year after enforcement of this law.
Lolo and Stanley Ann were married in March 1965. If little Barry was born in August, 1961 he would have been three years old.
Did Lolo adopt little Barry immediately after the marriage? My own opinion is I don’t think they would have gone through the hoops and expense of having Lolo adopt little Barry under Hawaiian law unless they knew that Lolo’s visa status had been resolved favorably and he could stay permanently in the United States. It just wouldn’t have been worth it.
Lolo was required to return to Indonesia and he did so in July 1966. Sometime after August 1967 when she received a degree from UH, Stanley Ann and little Barry joined Lolo in Indonesia.
If Lolo adopted Barry it was likely shortly after Barry’s arrival in Indonesia. One can imagine that the easiest path would have been for Lolo to take little Barry down to the local court, state that he was under 5 (he wasn’t) and acknowledge that little Barry was his adopted son upon which he would be granted Indonesian citizenship and presumably the name “Soebarkah.” As an Indonesian citizen he would be eligible for the local schools and other privileges, such as an Indonesian passport if they thought it useful. Whether Lolo could have gotten away with this likely depended simply on whether he had a good relationship with the folks at the local court. But it strikes me as completely plausible.
Assuming Barry received Indonesian citizenship, what plausibly might have happened later, when he became a young adult, with respect to Indonesian law? When we are talking about what he may have done, for example, in the 1979-1981 period, it seems to me too much of a stretch to assume that this law from 1958 was likely still unamended and was the proper legal authority. I note however that under this law at the end of Article 17 if Obama had wanted to continue Indonesian citizenship beyond age 18 after having lived in Hawaii for so many years then he needed to make a declaration to Indonesia that he wished to continue to be an Indonesian citizen prior to his 18th birthday.
In any event if the type of language contained in this law: “I swear (promise): that I release entirely all loyalty to foreign authority” was in any English version of a declaration Obama may or may not have given as a young adult in order to continue Indonesian citizenship or renew a passport, then that would be very damaging to any “stupidity” defense that he didn’t know what he was doing.
Obviously, this is all somewhat speculative in the absence of seeing the relevant records.
Oh well, I could use some new landscaping anyway.
You make a good point. I suppose I would point out that we have plenty of US citizens who are virulently anti-American and do not even have dual citizenship - just visit your local college and hang out in the faculty lounge!
Thanks Mimi3. I honestly don’t think Rummy has the integrity to admit she is wrong and apologize.
She is just someone too willing to believe a juicy BS story made up out of a bunch of baloney.
But I know the person who is responsible for it, she is watching everything I post here. She likes to send me a lot of emails, some of which have been threatening in the past. Of course I could publish all that at any time and let other people make up their own minds about it. It might just be the best option. Let the public decide what sort of person is harassing me and my family. Frankly that idea to me would be stooping to her level. Not sure I can do that. I can say I am frustrated enough to be considering it though.
She has been told she has published a bunch of BS. She knows she libeled me, she knows she libeled my family. She has been told how. She has had mistakes pointed out. She still doesn’t get that she has no right to publish crap about people’s families. She fully expects to retain the same anonymity she has stolen from the people she slimes. Amazing.
In fact, I think I should make public what she is doing.
She actually demanded I let HDOH let her access my documents so she can have embossed copies of a certification I don’t think HDOH even gives. They provide Birth Certificates, that is the only thing she could possibly get. So what she is demanding is certified copies of my Birth Certificates.
This is what she said to me:
“How about this, Dianna: You authorize the Hawaii Department of Health to verify for me — by certification and through certified mail — that they issued the birth certificate, in the attached image, with the purported HDOH seal debossment applied to the back. I’ll incur any cost associated with this request.
If you do that AND they are able to verify this for me, then I will go to great lengths to retract my accusation that you provided the public with a false identification document.”
She goes further in a following email:
“Please note, I will also have to insist that any verification from the HDOH be certified with their official RAISED seal EMBOSSMENT, per the departments administrative laws.”
That’s called blackmail.
I might also point out that HDOH won’t “certify” that the short form birth certificate Obama has on the internet is what they sent out. I can get certified copies of my documents. She can’t possibly expect to get something I cannot. But I digress, the larger point is this, there is no way I would authorize some Jane Doepsycho permission to get copies of my birth certificates without knowing exactly who they are.
I told her I would authorize her to communicate with HDOH about my records if I get her full name, address, phone number, and certified copies of her birth records from her state of birth corresponding to what she asks of Hawaii regarding mine.
That is a Quid Pro Quo. Completely fair, and practical from a personal security standpoint.
Yeah she refused. Of course she did. She wants to sit back and slander people in anonymity, without the people she libels knowing who she is. Ummm hum. I got one word for that: COWARD. Oh and one other: Thug.
She is desperately afraid that someone might do to her, what she has done to me and my family. She KNOWS what she has done is immorally wrong, because she is desperate to prevent it from done to her. Not that I would, I am not that kind of lowlife slime. But she is, knows how wrong it is, and that’s why she fears it. She knows that slimeballs are out there, she is one of them.
Those are Obama tactics. Chicago politics. Blackmail. If you can’t attack the message, then slander the messenger and their family, see if that will force them to give you what you so desperately want: In her case its an official certified birth certificate from Hawaii with embossed stamps on it. She wants it so bad she is willing to try and blackmail me with libel against me and my family my family to try and get it.
She is willing to slander other people, putting them at risk, then use her “fear” for her family as an excuse not to give what she demands. I didn’t slander or libel her family. She slandered and libeled MY family. I didn’t post up the names of her family members, making them public. She did that to MY family.
Tell me, who should be trusted in that situation? Umm hummm. That isn’t even remotely a tough call is it? No one can trust a thing a person like this says. It speaks directly to the utter lack of personal integrity of the person who posts the names of a person’s family members on the internet. Tell me, how would you feel if someone posted your deceased Dad’s name then smeared him. Then your brother, then your husband? Slandered you, accused you of fraud. Then demanded you give up the most personal information in exchange for retracting it all, without revealing who they are.
Enough said. Her actions speak for themselves and tell who she is.
I bookmarked it but still waiting for Donald Trump. Maybe he feels the news may be too sensitive during Hurricane Isaac?
No, what you remember is me posting over and over and over and over and over again against the stupidity of the claim that Obama is British because his father is British. I was the first one to bring up the ACTUAL law involving a marriage that was void ab initio DESPITE Donofrio and Apuzzo ignoring the law
You will also remember that I have posted some about the fact that whether or not Obama is a natural born citizen is up in the air. Given the current SCOTUS..I think they would rule in his favor IF it ever got that - which it won’t. I even posted the oral argument in another case where SCOTUS ACTUALLY discussed this topic and brought up Romney’s father.
You will also recall that I have researched the web of interrelated characters as it relates to the intelligence community.
You will also recall that the site that makes fun of the birthers says that what Danae did backs up Obama’s claim.
But maybe you missed that....
It's not beyond the realm of possibilities he did just that. In "Barak Obama the Story", when referring to Ann leaving Barry for years at a time, it does say, "She was gone, then back for the better part of 3 years, then gone, mostly but not entirely for another 4, with the family reuniting in Hawaii or Indonesia during summer vactions". Without Barry Soebarkah's passports, we don't know for sure.
That is a cute picture of your father. HOWEVER, you told me that it came from your father’s obituary. Now, you claim you don’t know where it came from.
I want to see the obituary with that photo. The poster does claim she got the family info from the online mortuary site. She provides a link. Which, of course, DOES NOT HAVE THAT PHOTO ON IT. Since the post that I made with the link was deleted I won’t post it again.
So let’s back up again. HOW did she get that photo. Did you send it to her?
The interesting thing about devious plots- be it CIA, other intelligence agencies, other people with agendas- all kinds of things can play out on the internet that are much different than reality.
These days the internet is a valuable tool for disinformation. It’s interesting how one of the key players against “birthers” on Free Republic is someone that happens to back you up..and many there indicate how you actually show how Obama’s BC can be legitimate.
Amazing that all this speculation is cleared up with just some cancelled passports or passport records from 1965 to 1985 or so....
But remember in 2008 the state departements records illegally accessed not once, not twice, but three times. The last one being 2 days after the datestamp in the original COLB photos posted at Fact Check.
Passport records - a story to themselves.
Do you use a lot of olive oil or something? You must use something to slip and slide out of apologizing.
I said the information that was gathered to find out who my family is came from my Dad’s Obituary. I have said a number of times I do not know where this piece of work got the photos from that she posts in her slander of my family. She claims she got my brothers picture off a site of his on the internet. Well he had the photo because it was included in a Family Montage I put together for my Mom for my Dad’s funeral service. Obviously I have the original. I took a picture of it and posted it for you as proof.
I didn’t send tickly ANYTHING. Everything she has she “researched” off the internet. I am not certain that some of it is real, she has pictures my mom doesn’t have, I don’t have and have never seen other than on her website. Not one photo did I give her. She claims to have a high school class photo of my dad, we do not have that picture, and I do not know where she got it. No clue. I think I sent her some scanned copies of my birth certificate years ago, and that was nothing other than what had been on the net already. She didn’t ask for my help in this crap, she didn’t get anything from me. She didn’t tell me about it. She just slipped it up in March, a slimy slanderous sneak attack.
She didn’t ask me before she published her crap back in March. I found out because someone notified me of it by way of the Obamafile, which immediately pulled everything to do with it. The site also banned her. That should tell you something right there.
Tickley did not call or email or contact my brother and ask his permission. She didn’t call or contact my husband or ask his permission, my Dad is of course dead, did she contact my Mom, oh no. No, she wrote to tell me she was taking it down. Then she wrote to tell me she was putting it up again. She also CC’s half the Hawaii Department of Heath, and legal departments and my Lawyer. This woman is crazy. She is willing to slander people in order to get attention. I consider her to be a form of cyber stalker.
I didn’t ask for her attention, but I publish so I have to deal with crazy idiots. My FAMILY does NOT. Doing what she did is WRONG. Categorically. If it were you in my position would you not feel the same? Any reasonable person would. It is a reasonable position! Imagine having your dad, husband and brother slandered with a bunch of untrue bs, and all used to throw you in a bad light. All to hurt you. Imagine that for a minute.
No one in my family has EVER worked for an intelligence agency of any sort. Neither have ANY of my family had anything to to with Obama or any of his extended family or any of their business. My parents also didn’t know Frank Marshal Davis, or any other person ever mentioned by Obama. We didn’t know Neil Ambercrombie. My dad did get to meet Bill Cosby though - that’s a funny story right there, but I digress. Tickly has posted up a fiction, and pushed it as being the truth. She offers no proof whatsoever. She can’t because such proof does not exist. You cannot prove a fiction. Did she use some facts, yeah, did she twist those facts into a fiction, yeppers, she did.
When I told her today, I would allow her access to my records at HDOH if she gave me access to hers. I am not going to release my records to someone bound and determined to slander me and my family and NOT identify herself. She said no. What does SHE have to hide? I am not the sort of person who posts slander about people’s families. She is. If she wants access to my personal documents, she can give precisely that to me. But she refused. What does that tell you? I am willing to, but she isn’t. If anyone is a plant for Obama, it is Miss Tickly, the woman sliming a writer and author who has done as much as anyone to expose the truth about Obama. I have been linked at the Drudge Report for heavens sake. She is trying to undermine the credibility of a person who has worked to legitimately expose Obama. Now, who is it working for Obama? I am beginning to think she isn’t working alone either. How on earth did she get a High School photo of my dad that WE don’t even have? How many were in the class? 20, 25? However many kids are in the photo, 20 - 25 families on earth with the picture, and SHE “finds” it? Maybe my extended family in Florida has a copy of it somewhere. I certainly do not.
Now for the record, I originally posted my short form in 08 to give people an authentic short form to compare to Obama’s. Face it, the man has some sort of legit documents in Hawaii. His short form looks like mine. The only thing I can question about it is the “African” thing, because that was never a term used in Hawaii. It turns out that is a Census term, and according to Mike Zullo in AZ, and his witness, the field should have been blank. Under Race, there should be nothing on Obama’s short form. Look at the Arpaio Cold Case posse for that info - that was news to me, I didn’t know the actual meaning of the census numbers until then, and yes they are on mine too.
Past that, I have questioned for a LONG time, HOW he got those documents. I believe it is because his birth was registered after the fact, not in a hospital, and because of that he cannot prove he was actually born on the island. Hawaii registered thousands of babies who were born elsewhere using that method. My belief is exactly what Mike Zullo said in his press conference. I am in complete agreement, and what the Cold Case said is almost exactly what I have been saying for a very long time.
The internet is being mis-used by some. I am NOT one of those. I never have been. Have I made errors, you bet. Did I own up to them, YES! Publicly! Did I have to? Could I have just blown it off and not admitted I made a mistake? yes, I could have. I did not though, I owned up to the mistake honestly, forthrightly, and immediately as soon as I knew it. Within an hour of getting the information in the mail from Hawaii, I posted everything they sent me and admitted my mistake. That is the act of an honest person RummyChick. I could have lied, but I didn’t. I told the truth then, and I am telling it now.
I think you said she got the picture from the Obituary.
But since your posts were deleted that contained that info...we will never know what you really said.
I am sticking by what I said RummyChick. Be that as it may, I do believe you owe me an apology. I gave you the picture you demanded. Now it is your turn.
btw, here is something interesting.
I have several posts made after Danae posted about her dad’s picture. I note that I referenced that she was indicating that the pic came from the obit and I did it more than once.
It’s not until after her post is deleted that she claims she didn’t say that.
Of course, I could have read her post wrong. That happens sometimes.
Just another mystery when it comes to Danae.
And what a surprise..years and years later after the initial post..she now comes up with yet another document.
One thing she is right about...given her husband’s line of work..and the weird weird weird history of this story...I won’t believe anything she puts on the internet.
It might be the real thing...but I will always look at it with a suspicious eye.
Actually you didn’t give me what I requested. I said I wanted to see it in the obituary because I believe that is where you first claimed it was posted.
That was and is my belief..with the caveat that I could have read it wrong. But since your post is gone..I will never know.
here is what I said:
I can’t believe your story unless you show me the obituary that had the photo you claim is your brother. The obituary is online with ONE photo. So where did this photo come from?
You may be telling the truth.
But I don’t believe your concocted story about your birth certificate.
That is my personal opinion.
202 posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2012 8:38:49 AM by RummyChick
Please add me to your ping list, thanks. I can’t wait for the birther issue to come true.
I will use small words for you.
Tickly got my families names off the obituary. Where she got everything everything else, I do not know. The information in the Obit, led her to what ever it led her to. you have to ask HER that. I did NOT provide anything to her. Nor did anyone in my family. She did it all herself.
Now you dense little person, ask yourself this, if Tickley is so DAMN smart, how could she get something so basic wrong like my Brother’s picture supposedly off a website HE posted it to, and got it mixed up with my Dad? It isn’t MY story thats the problem fool, it is HERS, and yours.
As HER that crap Rummy, you idiot. I didn’t post her crap, and I didn’t help her do it. SHE is the one who has gotten just damn near everything wrong. NOT me.
Go bark up the right damned tree for heavens sake. I am done with you. I owe you NOTHING. And your opinion of me is absolutely NONE of my business. How about you keep it that way.
It is true.
Welcome to the list.
Thanks TennesseeGirl. Have you seen the movie? I have always wondered why Barack Obama Sr returned to Hawaii in 1971. I thought it may have something to do with signing papers needed to somehow legitimize Obama II. I still believe he was asked to come to Hawaii by the Dunhams, if he was living in the same building it shows that he maintained communications with the Dunhams while he was in Kenya.
Role Tide!!
“all hair and no cattle”
LOL
: )
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