Ma'am; do we REALLY look like bullies to you???
Posted on 02/10/2012 12:14:55 PM PST by OKSooner
Is it a fair question to ask... Is Mormonism Christian or is it not?
If you care enough to respond and tell me it's not a fair question, please explain why not.
Good quetion and even better observation. I'm old enough to remember when it was considered chic and fashionable to hate Catholics among certain Protestant sects or, more to the point, certain extreme members in certain Protestant sects.
I think the Kennedys and the Kennedy assassinations made it unchic and unfashionable. That's when the same people found it chic and fashionable to hate Mormons with even fewer consequences.
Bully bigots generally target those least likely and/or fewest in number to fight back.
FWIW, the same Mather clan justified extermination of the Native Americans (including some in the very tribes which helped them survive the brutal early years in the colonies) by the rationalization that they were preventing the birth of more lost souls which wouldn't convert to their brand of Christianity and would be damned anyway. It is the same sick type of philosophy which the left uses for exterminating opponents of their brand of socialist utopia.
As I previously stated, the real Baptists (who adhere the Roger Williams model of absolute right to worship according to your individual dictates of conscience) find such a philosophy abhorrent. The phony variety find it chic and fashionable, particularly when it is limited to only "soft" persecution like shouting people down, distorting their beliefs, branding them as cults, etc. Sort of like a disproportionate number of abused children grow up to be child abusers themselves.
In general or specifically?
I post it to you here in answer to your question, and I do so as an LDS myself at the risk of the potential ridicule, attacks, name-calling (ie. liar, deciever, etc.), etc. that it may well generate from those intent on marginalizing and demonizing anything that has to do with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to which I belong
So be it. I thought you should hear a witness from an LDS member directly.
It is an accurate description of what we, active LDS members believe, as opposed to what others tell us that we believe.
I hope you find it of interest from that perspective.
I suppose I am entitled to my own "witness" regarding Dr. Millet, which was that he is a silken-tonged apostle of a false gospel, as clearly exposed by the Apostle Paul in Galatians 1:6-8:
"I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!"
These verses apply directly to Mormons, who explicitly claim to have a new revelation from God - delivered by an "angel" (..."if we or an angel from heaven...") Dr. Millet himself explicitly stated that he was not teaching the Gospel as taught in the New Testament, but rather the "restored" Mormon gospel. However, this "gospel" is contrary to the Gospel as preached and taught by the Apostles in the New Testament, and therefore falls under Paul's condemnation.
The following excerpt from your "witness" is very revealing in that you admit what most Mormons will not, namely your belief that you will one day become a god. The following is excerpted from your "witness":
"Having said all that, we are created in the express image of God. He told us so. I imagine that if the veil were rent in twain and our mortal eyes could stand to behold God as prophets of old did, we would see His glorified person and recognize His form as the same as our own...but glorified and eternal.
He has said, and his apostles and disciples have said on numerous occasions, that we are His Children, and that we can attain the same glory as Christ...and we know that unto Christ will be given "all that the Father hath"...and that in fact Christ commanded us to become perfect even as He, God in Heaven is perfect.
...The couplet you are looking for, expressed by Lorenzo Snow is this, "As man is, God once was, and as God is man may become."
We believe a loving Father, who loves us perfectly, wants His children to have the absolute very best (i.e. godhead?)...any loving father inherits this from God and wants the same for His children, as does a loving mother. Remember what Paul taught in Romans 10 and what Christ taught in Matthew. We believe those things and believe God in fact wants us to become like Him because He wants the very best for us and He has it. He loves us perfectly and wants us to have His perfect existance. It does not detract from Him in the least to do so, rather, the opposite is true. We believe that the whole plan of salvation, the Gospel of Jesus Christ is geared towards this end. (attaining godhead?)
.That as He created and brought us forth...His own children...and that He would have us do the same thing some day. Now, Lorenzo Snow, based on a sermon Joseph Smith preached back in the late 1830s or 1840 came up with that couplet to describe what he felt Jospeph Smith was teaching based on these principles I have just described. To us, these things are holy, special, and glorious and represent the will of a perfectly loving Father in Heaven.
------------------------
There you have it, ladies and gentlemen, a rare - almost unheard of confession by a Mormon of the secret "Adam-god" doctrine. Non-Mormons are not judged worthy to be instructed in this doctrine because of the "milk before meat" principle that the uninitiated are not worthy to receive the "deeper truths" of Mormonism.
Jeff - you are to be commended for at least honestly admitting that Mormons believe and teach this doctrine among themselves. If I may make a prediction, I suspect that you will be in a bit of trouble with "those in authority" for speaking so plainly, for "casting your pearls before swine..."
Regarding the persecution complex that many Mormon have, it is not "persecution" when others question your theological beliefs, and point out that they are contrary to the Bible. After all, your own esteemed leaders have called all other Christian denominations an "abomination" which preach a "dead" and false Gospel. But when you are challenged, all of a sudden you are being persecuted?
You claim to worship Christ as your Savior, but by your own words you deny who Jesus Christ really is - the 2nd person of the Holy Trinity, the Creator and Redeemer of mankind. What you believe is that YOU WILL ONE DAY BECOME AS CHRIST WAS - THAT YOU WILL BE ON THE SAME LEVEL AS CHRIST - THE GOD OF YOUR OWN WORLD. This is blasphemy.
What will happen is this: "For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." (Phil. 2:9-11)
No created being can ever be on the same level as Christ. No created being can share His eternal glory. EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW to Him - there are no other Mormon worlds and other Adam-gods throughout the universe. JESUS CHRIST is and will always be at the center of God's heaven as described in the book of Revelation - a heaven which is very different than the Mormon concept of the afterlife.
The Apostle Paul warns that if we do not worship Jesus as he is, if we preach "another gospel" other than that revealed in the Bible, we will be "accursed":
"I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!" (Galatians 1:9-11)
From Romans, by Paul, "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our Spirit that we are the Children of God, and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and JOINT HEIRS WITH JESUS CHRIST, if so be that we suffer with Him, that we might also be glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that shall be revealed in us."
John taught the same.
We simply believe that they meant what they said. Jesus Christ wants us to become as perect as the Father, and through the grace of His atonement, we can, and ultimately be joint heirs of the Father with Christ, whom the scriptures clearly teach in the New Testament, inherited all that the Father hath.
There will be no scolding...I have served in Bishoprics myself and bearing this testimony is not viewed badly, or "wrong" in the least.
Anyhow, it is clear that we differ on this...but it has no bearing on my salvation through Christ Jesus and Him crucified and resurrected. That is the essential doctrine...and the scriptures also clearly teach that no man can confess Christ Jesus and Him crucified except moved upon by the Holy Ghost. I so testify of Him to you, tjd1454, now.
Others may judge between us for themselves, but I am grateful that Christ will judge me and my heart, because He knows of my acceptance of His wonderous gift.
God bless you for your own acceptance of Christ and the good you do in bringing others to Him. I will continue to go about trying my best to do the same.
Ma'am; do we REALLY look like bullies to you???
Oh brother. Like that ever happened. There is in-fighting even among the brethren. And Cain killed Abel. Nothing new under the sun.
Forgot to post my p.s. to you, Elsie. What was your point exactly? Other than to insult.
Yes, I did post this thread because I wanted more information about how it might effect the election.
No, I did not mean to stir up a $#!+$+0rm over it. Christian or not, what's so difficult for responsible adults about a straight answer, whatever it might be, with civility, like the one posted by Charles Henrickson?
Thanks again for the straight answer from your side of the matter, and I hope you're doing well these days.
It is not our self-identification which makes one a Christian.
Only the work of God makes us a Christian. More specifically, the identification of God the Holy Spirit of our regenerated human spirit with our soul makes us Christian.
Christians cannot be converted by any man, including Christ Jesus. Even our Lord appealed to God the Father for men to become believers and in this mystery Church Age, it is the work of God the Holy Spirit which baptizes a believer into salvation.
Those who self-identify, place the old man before the new man and fail to place faith in Christ.
So you think I am attacking you because I disagree on your approach to witnessing?
According to you, this should somehow make you more willing to convert to Catholicism?
If you aren’t, you understand my point perfectly.
“...the most open, consistent Catholic participation on Mormon threads, is in support of Mormonism...”
In my case it is because I know for a fact that SOME evangelicals bear false witness against Catholics even when corrected. I don’t speak for other Catholics, but maybe it is because other Catholics have had similar experiences. Fellow Christians should know better.
And I am not defending mormon theology per se. As I’ve tried to make clear already, I think your angry/venomous approach to witnessing for the Lord is is a poor one, and counterproductive if your intent is to bring people to Jesus.
Oh NO!
THAT was NOT my intent at all!
I just wanted to illustrate how narrow a path that lot of folks thinks leads to heaven.
I meant no slur towards you or our organization at all.
For instance; I am a member of a WESLEYAN church, and no doubt there are Calvinists here on FR that'd go OOOoooh! at that revelation, but we are STILL on the same side.
How is posting writings that your chosen religion has printed, TELLING others what you believe?
If your 'beliefs' differ from what is available to peruse; where is the disconnected?
It might be an 'accurate description' of what you believe; but can you say with all honesty that it is ALL that you 'believe'?
It never occurred to me that you were attacking me at all, you have been attacking Protestant and Evangelical Christians in sweeping hostile statements while fighting for Mormonism.
You continue to attack Christians, in every post.
We see this a lot, someone claims to be Catholic, uses neon posts to highlight that fact, as they work in defense of Mormonism, a common variant of that is to try and start a Protestant versus Catholic fight while they are in service to Mormonism.
Your angry/venomous attacks on Christians is bizarre, but especially in service to the anti-Christian cult of Mormonism, and it is counterproductive, unless your agenda is what it clearly is, defend Mormonism.
Mormons have been brought to Jesus on these freerepublic threads, yet you fight that successful effort.
I appreciate your courteous reply. I assure you that I have nothing against Mormons on a personal level. I do appreciate the fact that many Mormons understand conservative principles and vote accordingly.
I must say that we are dealing with weighty theological differences here regarding the very nature of God, Christ, and Salvation. By way of full disclosure, I have an earned Ph.D. in theology and have taught and written on theological subjects, and in former years did a fair amount of research regarding the LDS church. While in graduate school I worked with an organization dedicated to sharing with those of the Mormon faith. In times past I engaged in quite a bit of "door to door" and street evangelism, as well as having served for a decade in overseas missions.
The LDS interpretation of the passages you quote is radically different from any orthodox Christian Church. I.e., references to "be ye perfect" and "joint heirs" do not mean that we will become gods/divine. Indeed, a created being is of a wholly different order than the Godhead. Quite simply, as created beings we are finite and limited, and thus we cannot become Gods.
As you are well aware, there is a biblical account of an attempt of a very high created being attempting to usurp God's throne. That attempt ended in failure, and could never have succeeded. I find it troubling that the teachings of the LDS church should resemble the vain attempt of Lucifer in Isaiah 14/Ezekiel, and the Serpent - the enemy of God - in the Garden, who promised: "You shall be as gods..."
The promise of divinity has been at the root of human religion since time immemorial, and stands in stark contrast to Judeo-Christian monotheism.
It seems to me that you are forsaking 2000 years of Christian history and reflection for one Joseph Smith. (Let's not get into the personal "witness" thing, as that cuts both ways). One day each of us will stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ, and I believe that on that Day there will not be one iota of a doubt that we are unworthy men kneeling before the Eternal God, and all pretense of anything else will have dissipated as a mist before the burning sun. All the best.
I guess you know that the Catholic church says that Christians can only be baptized once, that is why if a baptized Baptist Evangelical becomes Catholic, he cannot be baptized a second time, because he is already a Christian, the church has judged that.
Easy to reply to that:
Christian religion is monotheistic - one God.
Mormonism is polytheistic - a multitude of gods.
Ergo, Mormonism cannot be Christian.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.